# Why are police so quick to kill?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 30, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689 "2017-05-30T00:48:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 13
### Author:  [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/241 "2017-07-19T02:24:06Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> If I understand it correctly, the officer(s) weren’t out of their vehicle yet. That might explain why the cameras weren’t on yet.
> **[New details emerge in officer-involved shooting in Minnesota | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/us/minneapolis-woman-killed-by-police/index.html)**
>
> The mayor of Minneapolis said she wants to hear from the officer who fatally shot Justine Ruszczyk.
This web site said the cameras should had been turned .
---
### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/242 "2017-07-19T02:39:43Z")
Officer Noor has refused to be interviewed by investigators and his attorney refuses to say if he will cooperate.
> **[Officer heard loud noise before partner Mohamed Noor shot Justine Damond,...](https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-police-officer-heard-loud-noise-before-partner-mohamed-noor-shot-justine-damond-minnesota-bca-says/435251273/)**
>
> Officer's interview provides first account of woman's shooting death in south Mpls.
Good opinion piece on there as well about taking back civilian control and oversight of the police. I can say as a prior 17.5 year resident of the City of Minneapolis that the Minneapolis PD has fought any kind of civilian oversight tooth and nail. To merely suggest it brings a smear campaign that you are anti-police, pro-criminal, in favor of mob rule or just plain a criminal yourself.
---
### Author:  [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/243 "2017-07-19T02:54:56Z")
When I heard that the officer was Somali, it explained a lot about the silence associated with this shooting. In short, Somali refugees have basically taken over the Twin Cities, and criticism of them is simply not allowed even though people in the communities they’ve been forced upon have nothing good to say about them. They have never had to follow laws, and aren’t exactly good at assimilating. Because of this, all rules at schools, employers, other public places, etc. have to be changed to accommodate them. I’ll bet he was hired because his town’s police force was under so much pressure to hire a Somali, any Somali, that they grabbed the first one who applied.
:dubious: :rolleyes:
---
### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/244 "2017-07-19T02:57:44Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> So when should Officer Noor activated his BWC?
According to his department policy:
> [@](#):
>
> When safe to do so … during the following situations:
> …
> · Any contact involving criminal activity.
> · Any contact involving physical or verbal confrontations.
> · Any contact that is, or becomes adversarial.
> …
> · Prior to any use of force.
> …
> Activation shall occur as soon as possible, but before any citizen contact. … If a situation changes to require activation, the officer shall immediately activate the BWC as soon as it is safe to do so.
I’d say that pretty solidly covers any situation in which he’d feel the need to shoot an unarmed pajama-clad woman, but I understand that sometimes situations be can be tense / rapidly-evolving / dynamic, and there’s not always time to activate it before-hand. That’s why the policy not only gives them the “When safe to do so” out, but also outlines how soon _after_ such a tense, rapidly-evolving situation is resolved that they should activate their BWCs. Their policy gives this additional guidance:
> [@](#):
>
> If a BWC is not activated prior to a use of force, it shall be activated as soon as it is safe to do so.
It’ll be interesting to see, in Officer Noor’s judgement, when it was safe to do so. Was it 30 seconds after the shots were fired? One minute? Two? Three? 10? 20? Sometime the following day? Inquiring minds want to know.
The policy also states:
> [@](#):
>
> D. If there is a failure to activate the BWC in any of the above situations, the Officer shall document the reasons for the failure in the Officer’s report or supplement.
> i. If a report is not prepared, the reasons for the failure to activate shall be documented via added remarks in Computer Aided Dispatch (CAD).
Like I said, I look forward to reading the reasons for his failure, either in his report or supplement, or from the CAD. Certainly, if he was complying with policy, the reason(s) are there, right?
---
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/245 "2017-07-19T03:08:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#):
>
> You are speaking either wrongly or meaninglessly. Saying you are using colloquialisms doesn’t excuse either of those.
Every other person in this thread perfectly understands what I’m saying. My words are not the problem here.
---
### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/246 "2017-07-19T03:16:44Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#):
>
> In short, Somali refugees have basically taken over the Twin Cities, and criticism of them is simply not allowed even though people in the communities they’ve been forced upon have nothing good to say about them.
Oh please. This is bullshit. No one has ‘forced’ them on communities and they haven’t ‘taken over’ the Twin Cities. There are about 30,000 of them in a metro area exceeding 3.5 million people. That’s \< 1% of the population. I’ve worked with Somalis, I’ve had them as neighbors.
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/247 "2017-07-19T03:56:08Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> So you believe, then, that O.J. Simpson didn’t murder his wife and Ron Goldman, since a jury found him not guilty? And yet a different jury in a civil trial found him liable for their wrongful deaths. It’s all very confusing, this belief in the infallibility of juries!
Even better - all those juries that convicted people that were later FACTUALLY PROVEN innocent.
Or research that shows that cops that perjure themselves [are rarely punished](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-police-testimony-met-20160506-story.html).
---
### Author:  [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/248 "2017-07-19T04:36:38Z")
HurricaneDitka;
I think you stopped reading a little early:
> [@](#):
>
> 1.
>
> ```
> Activation with Officer Discretion
>
> ```
>
> a. Officers may activate the BWC in the following situations:
>
> · General citizen contacts where the officer feels that recording is appropriate.
> · Anytime an officer feels it is appropriate to preserve audio/visual data when taking a statement from a victim, suspect or witness. Officers should make an effort to notify a victim or witness of the use of the BWC and should attempt to gain their consent to record the statement.
If they’re just rolling up to get info from the reporting party before investigating they’re not obligated to turn the BWC on.
[QUOTE=purplehearingaid]
[http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/us/min...ice/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/us/min...ice/index.html)
This web site said the cameras should had been turned .
[/quote]
In that CNN article I didn’t find any statements to the effect that the BWC’s should have been turned on. The mayor said she was disappointed that they weren’t turned on, but that doesn’t mean she said it was a policy violation. Besides, I wouldn’t take her word on what LE policy is.
[QUOTE=FavreCo]
There is no valid reason the in car camera should not be recording.
[/quote]
What is the policy for the dash-cam being activated? What turns it on automatically?
---
### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/249 "2017-07-19T06:33:48Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> HurricaneDitka;
> I think you stopped reading a little early:
>
> If they’re just rolling up to get info from the reporting party before investigating they’re not obligated to turn the BWC on.
And what about after the use of force? How long afterwards would Officer Noor have to have delayed turning on his BWC for you to start to believe “ehh, that was a little too long, he should have activated it before then” (given what the policy mandates)? Would you give him a minute? ten minutes? an hour?
---
### Author:  [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/250 "2017-07-19T07:14:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> And what about after the use of force? How long afterwards would Officer Noor have to have delayed turning on his BWC for you to start to believe “ehh, that was a little too long, he should have activated it before then” (given what the policy mandates)? Would you give him a minute? ten minutes? an hour?
I’m sure you think you would instantly think of department policy after shooting someone for what is likely the first time for both of them. Cool as a cucumber. Easy to say when one is typing that from behind a keyboard.
I would probably give them ten minutes. The problem is that that amount of time would be eight minutes too much. The BWC’s only record two minutes worth of data prior to the activation. That’s a pretty short window while one is experiencing a very traumatic event.
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/251 "2017-07-19T07:57:43Z")
Here’s an interesting case. A woman was on death row for 22 years,[put there solely on the testimony of a cop](https://thecrimereport.org/2015/07/21/2015-07-evidence-of-police-dishonesty-leads-to-overturned-co/), a cop who had a history of misconduct including [self-confessed criminal sexual extortion](http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2013/08/disgraced-phoenix-police-detective-armando-is-in-for-a-very-rough-ride-at-any-retrial-of-debra-milke-2543910.html) which his only punishment was 5 days suspension and the DA dropped the charges.
But here’s the thing, the cop had been caught committing perjury before. It was his word against hers - his was that she made an unrecorded and unsigned confession which she denied. His testimony about her confession was the only evidence and the jury convicted her.
So what do you want to do with that Shodan and Steophan? Defend how the cop was never held accountable for his crimes of perjury and sex extortion (except 5 days vacation)? Discuss how crazy we are that we contend juries accept the police’s word over defendants? Would you like to defend the DA for not charging the cop with perjury after costing a woman 22 years of her life? Oh and get this, despite his history of misconduct, he was never dismissed as a cop so now he lives on a nice pension. Care to defend that too?
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/252 "2017-07-19T08:01:39Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> In that CNN article I didn’t find any statements to the effect that the BWC’s should have been turned on. The mayor said she was disappointed that they weren’t turned on, but that doesn’t mean she said it was a policy violation. Besides, I wouldn’t take her word on what LE policy is.
And I think that is one of the issues we’re raising. How did it escalate from an situation not even needing dash or body cams on to HOLY FUCK I NEED TO SHOOT HER RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! so quickly?
---
### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/253 "2017-07-19T14:21:59Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> I’m sure you think you would instantly think of department policy after shooting someone for what is likely the first time for both of them. Cool as a cucumber.
You are wrong. I don’t claim, or believe, that I “would instantly think of department policy after shooting someone”. Nevertheless, it _is_ a violation of policy if he didn’t turn it on “as soon as it [was] safe to do so” after the shooting, agreed?
I can appreciate and sympathize with the stresses involved, although I do tend to sympathize more with Mz. Damond and the physical trauma she was enduring than Mr. Noor and his mental trauma.
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> I would probably give them ten minutes. The problem is that that amount of time would be eight minutes too much. The BWC’s only record two minutes worth of data prior to the activation. That’s a pretty short window while one is experiencing a very traumatic event.
Thanks for the answer. It’ll be interesting to learn if he did turn it on, and when.
---
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/254 "2017-07-19T16:45:55Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> Here’s an interesting case. A woman was on death row for 22 years,[put there solely on the testimony of a cop](https://thecrimereport.org/2015/07/21/2015-07-evidence-of-police-dishonesty-leads-to-overturned-co/), a cop who had a history of misconduct including [self-confessed criminal sexual extortion](http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2013/08/disgraced-phoenix-police-detective-armando-is-in-for-a-very-rough-ride-at-any-retrial-of-debra-milke-2543910.html) which his only punishment was 5 days suspension and the DA dropped the charges.
>
> But here’s the thing, the cop had been caught committing perjury before. It was his word against hers - his was that she made an unrecorded and unsigned confession which she denied. His testimony about her confession was the only evidence and the jury convicted her.
If anyone cares about my opinion on this… This is the point where the rational move becomes “fire the entire Phoenix PD, then find new people for those jobs”. If this guy was allowed to stay on the force after _perjury and extortion_, then there is something deeply corrupt in the leadership of the Phoenix PD, and absolutely every single part of it is suspect to the point where I would not trust a _single_ cop in that city. If I were a “good” cop in Phoenix, I would have tendered my resignation _long_ ago, rather than belong to an organization to keeps scumbags like this on even after they commit serious crimes. Ergo, it’s reasonable to believe that there are _no_ “good cops” in Phoenix. Just bad cops and stupid cops. Get rid of the lot of them, find officers who aren’t fucking evil.
---
### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [July 19, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/255 "2017-07-19T17:15:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> If anyone cares about my opinion on this… This is the point where the rational move becomes “fire the entire Phoenix PD, then find new people for those jobs”. If this guy was allowed to stay on the force after _perjury and extortion_, then there is something deeply corrupt in the leadership of the Phoenix PD, and absolutely every single part of it is suspect to the point where I would not trust a _single_ cop in that city. If I were a “good” cop in Phoenix, I would have tendered my resignation _long_ ago, rather than belong to an organization to keeps scumbags like this on even after they commit serious crimes. Ergo, it’s reasonable to believe that there are _no_ “good cops” in Phoenix. Just bad cops and stupid cops. Get rid of the lot of them, find officers who aren’t fucking evil.
While I agree, that’s just a start.
Then you prosecute the cops for the crimes that they committed while wearing a state sanctioned badge and a gun.
---
### Author:  [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/256 "2017-07-20T01:59:08Z")
If cops want all these extra protections and laws to shield them, when something is clearly wrong and they get convicted the sentence should be double that of the civilian.
---
### Author:  [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/257 "2017-07-20T02:12:03Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> I’m sure you think you would instantly think of department policy after shooting someone for what is likely the first time for both of them. Cool as a cucumber. Easy to say when one is typing that from behind a keyboard.
Well, if I were in that situation I’d probably be freaking out – but I’d also make a _terrible_ police officer. (I’m pretty darn good at “typing from behind a keyboard”, though.)
I think it’s fair to hold people to a higher standard than, “You need to be able to do your job at least as well as I personally would do it.”
---
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/258 "2017-07-20T04:08:30Z")
> [@tim314](#):
>
> Well, if I were in that situation I’d probably be freaking out – but I’d also make a _terrible_ police officer. (I’m pretty darn good at “typing from behind a keyboard”, though.)
>
> I think it’s fair to hold people to a higher standard than, “You need to be able to do your job at least as well as I personally would do it.”
Especially if those people have the power to end or ruin your life more or less on a whim.
---
### Author:  [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2017, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/259 "2017-07-20T05:23:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#):
>
> Especially if those people have the power to end or ruin your life more or less on a whim.
Bullshit.
And you’re again libeling those in the profession.
Considering both the law & agency policy strictly detail when deadly force can be used, please provide evidence that police officers can kill on a whim.
---
### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [July 20, 2017, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/260 "2017-07-20T08:23:46Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#):
>
> Bullshit.
>
> And you’re again libeling those in the profession.
>
> Considering both the law & agency policy strictly detail when deadly force can be used, please provide evidence that police officers can kill on a whim.
Do you think Michael Slager would have faced any justice without that cell phone video of the shooting?
Again, you’re talking legal doctrine, and I’m talking practical fact.
In _theory_, there is a strict basis in law and policy which restricts the use of deadly force.
In _practice_, these laws and policies excused the murder of Philando Castile and Terence Crutcher, and allows officers to gather a _long_ list of complaints against them before any action is taken.
In _theory_, the cops have well-established rules with regards to warrants, arrests, gathering evidence, etc.
In _practice_, it’s well-established that cops can and sometimes will [plant evidence on people for no apparent reason](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMA1Otuat2U), and that knowing your rights is no defense [if the police decide you don’t have those rights](http://www.theblaze.com/news/2013/07/12/new-dashcam-footage-released-showing-full-viral-tenn-dui-checkpoint-stop-as-21-year-old-now-admits-he-planned-the-video/).
It is not libel to point this out. For someone being so lawyerly, you should know that.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689.md?page=12)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689.md?page=14)