# Why are police so quick to kill?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 30, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689 "2017-05-30T00:48:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/81 "2017-06-01T02:50:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> This is demonstrably not true in all cases, but in related news, the cops in LA did break into someone’s house, hose them down with bullets for holding a BB gun, and just won back their qualified immunity at the SCOTUS today.
>
> [link](http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/30/supreme-court-rules-8-0-for-police-in-ma)
There have been similar stores about going in to check on someone mentally ill but otherwise able to live alone. When the person didn’t open the door, the cops break it down and ultimately shoot or kill the home owner.
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### Author:  [@EDLance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EDLance)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/82 "2017-06-01T07:53:01Z")
Who do you deem belongs to the police? Do you hold it as a sinless guild, warded against further hands?
Bethink that you heard, not saw, this; from a teller of tales.
I do not know the old days of police or their likenesses over the lands. Sure their way is to fight lawbreakers. If they wax grimmer than howso score years ago, it is only change, which, as they say, is certain.
Ween I did feel strong against it. What more should I do than chide here? Of all foes lawmen are among the mightiest.
It is a thing to speak of, and may heart thought, yet forgive my mislike; for I well know men shall speak of ‘the way it was’ and ‘what has become of it’. And that is well, yet they are like to do nought but speak words over it; and so it is mean.
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### Author:  [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/83 "2017-06-01T12:23:07Z")
Thread winner?
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### Author:  [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/84 "2017-06-01T12:55:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> These guys are carrying squirt guns?
>
> [armed police UK - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=armed+police+UK&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-z-eEyZrUAhUEyyYKHVhJBCoQ_AUICygC&biw=1246&bih=690)
It’s already been pointed out that the UK does have _some_ armed police (particularly in evidence at the moment, post Manchester bomb), but your everyday bobby on the beat is not carrying a firearm, and the majority are not licensed to do so.
I have been told that the Isle of Man has no armed police at all (they have an arrangement with an English force to borrow staff in an emergency). Not sure if that’s true, but they don’t have a very large population.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/85 "2017-06-01T13:28:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> This is demonstrably not true in all cases, but in related news, the cops in LA did break into someone’s house, hose them down with bullets for holding a BB gun, and just won back their qualified immunity at the SCOTUS today.
>
> [link](http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/30/supreme-court-rules-8-0-for-police-in-ma)
I don’t understand that ruling.
Did SCOTUS just say that it was essentially legal for cops to break into people’s houses and shoot them for no reason at all?
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### Author:  [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/86 "2017-06-01T16:39:01Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#):
>
> Cops will kill any chance they get. The perp can be unarmed, restrained or innocently hanging out in their own house. It does not matter they kill with no repercussions.
That is simply not true. If cops shot every time they were legally justified in doing so, the number of OIS would skyrocket. Its anecdotal but when I ask officers that I train, “How many of you have ever NOT pulled the trigger even though you would have been legally justified?” the number is around 70%. It has happened to me more than once. Why didn’t I? I don’t know. A gut feeling? Maybe. Giving the suspect one last chance? Probably. I can’t give a cite right now but I believe that studies have found similar numbers across the country. I know that you don’t believe it and nothing I will say can change your mind but the vast majority cops do not want to shoot someone. It is well known in the police community that the impact of killing someone, even when unquestionably justified, on officers is often devastating.
There are too many other alternate facts in this thread to even begin to address.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/87 "2017-06-01T16:51:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> I don’t understand that ruling.
>
> Did SCOTUS just say that it was essentially legal for cops to break into people’s houses and shoot them for no reason at all?
IANAL, but my layman’s understanding was that the Court said it’s still illegal to break into people’s homes without a warrant, but if they’ve done that and find themselves facing a threat, they can still “defend” themselves. Basically, ‘plaintiff’s 4th Amendment complaint for the unlawful entry is valid, but not the excessive force claim because the cops had a valid reason to use the force they did’
ETA: also, they never seem to miss an opportunity to overturn the wacky 9th Circuit
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/88 "2017-06-01T17:56:03Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> The problem is when cops escalate a situation, usually quoting a law that doesn’t exist such as “show me you’re ID” …
It’s not clear to me whether or not “show me your ID” is something the cops can demand in California. The ACLU says they can’t; [this guy](https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/in-california--am-i-legally-required-to-carry-id-o-962970.html), who also claims to be a lawyer, says they can.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@UCBearcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UCBearcats)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/89 "2017-06-01T18:00:25Z")
> [@MikeF](#):
>
> That is simply not true. If cops shot every time they were legally justified in doing so, the number of OIS would skyrocket. Its anecdotal but when I ask officers that I train, “How many of you have ever NOT pulled the trigger even though you would have been legally justified?” the number is around 70%. It has happened to me more than once. Why didn’t I? I don’t know. A gut feeling? Maybe. Giving the suspect one last chance? Probably. I can’t give a cite right now but I believe that studies have found similar numbers across the country. I know that you don’t believe it and nothing I will say can change your mind but the vast majority cops do not want to shoot someone. It is well known in the police community that the impact of killing someone, even when unquestionably justified, on officers is often devastating.
>
> There are too many other alternate facts in this thread to even begin to address.
You are right. I don’t believe it. The line blue line is a legal mob that only cares about themself and not the community at large. Beat, taser, shot first ask questions later.
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### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/90 "2017-06-01T18:13:53Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#):
>
> Cite?
Reality in America is my cite. Please, let me know when you find evidence that this is not so.
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### Author:  [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/91 "2017-06-01T18:19:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> It’s not clear to me whether or not “show me your ID” is something the cops can demand in California.
It is legal for a cop in any state to say “show me your ID” in circumstances deemed reasonable. No one is required to provide a form of ID in any state (except when driving, in an airplane. etc.). Whether or not one has to verbally identify their self depends on situation and location. So, in all places it’s legal for a cop to “demand” ID, while also being legal in some situations and places to not so much as give one’s name.
Regarding CA, I believe the ACLU has it correct and the lawyer’s response in your link marked “Best Answer” has it wrong. He doesn’t cite any cases or laws to back up his claim, yet bothers to cite _Terry v. Ohio_ for evidence that their is a low standard of evidence need for a Terry stop.
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### Author:  [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/92 "2017-06-01T18:44:08Z")
> [@Chimera](#):
>
> Reality in America is my cite. Please, let me know when you find evidence that this is not so.
Bullshit. You made bullshit claims regarding police training. “Reality in America” is not a cite.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/93 "2017-06-01T18:54:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> It’s not clear to me whether or not “show me your ID” is something the cops can demand in California. The ACLU says they can’t; [this guy](https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/in-california--am-i-legally-required-to-carry-id-o-962970.html), who also claims to be a lawyer, says they can.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
A cop can ask for ID of anyone. The question is whether you can be detained and/or charged with a crime for failing to produce one.
In the absence of a state law forbidding it (and I doubt any state has such a law), an officer who has reasonable suspicion can detain you for a reasonable period in an effort to identify you. What constitutes a reasonable period is fact-dependent.
Some states have made it a criminal offense not to produce ID, and the Supreme Court has upheld that (in somewhat limited circumstances). CA is not such a state, based on that thread.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/94 "2017-06-01T19:38:44Z")
Thanks for the answer, but I am beginning to think it’s not my fault that I’m still not sure.
So, in CA you don’t have to produce ID, but the cops (if they have reasonable suspicion) can detain you while they try to identify you, if you don’t produce ID. IIUC you do have to _tell_ them your identifying information, like name, address (if any) and birth date. But you don’t have to document it. Then the cops try to identify you by some other means. If they have your name and birthdate, they could run a check for outstanding warrants or such like.
No wonder IANAL.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/95 "2017-06-01T19:43:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> IUC you do have to _tell_ them your identifying information, like name, address (if any) and birth date.
They can only detain you for a reasonable period of time, and it cannot extend to becoming an arrest, regardless of whether you cooperate. Many jurisdictions interpret that as 2 hours, but technically it’s case-by-case.
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### Author:  [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/96 "2017-06-01T20:03:17Z")
It’s hilarious if not unexpected that Shodan is bogged down by the trivialities of the encounter and not the main point that it illustrates.
THERE WAS NO CRIME.
Two people yelling at one another briefly isn’t a crime. Anyone of us, would have asked what the problem was, determined there was no crime, determined that main issue was a white woman afraid of black, PREGNANT woman for no apparent reason that she appears to have been able to articulate, calmed everyone down, and told them to head on home and no more arguing.
But not these COPS. They have to escalate. Let’s ask the uppity black bitch for her ID. What, she’s not respecting my AUTHARITAH!?! Tackler her black ass.
It’s almost as though the local bag boy at the AMC could do a better job than most police officers the way many can figure out how to deal calmly and professionally with even the most annoying customers.
I love the automatic “STOP RESISTING” that they’ve now trained themselves to shout the moment they decide to use violence. Immediately absolves them of anything. He could have harmed her baby, and I bet you that sentence would have meant nothign would have ever happened to him.
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### Author:  [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/97 "2017-06-01T20:19:05Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#):
>
> Bullshit. You made bullshit claims regarding police training. “Reality in America” is not a cite.
Isn’t \>1,000 people a year killed by police a real cite?
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/98 "2017-06-01T20:44:03Z")
> [@Chimera](#):
>
> Isn’t \>1,000 people a year killed by police a real cite?
You haven’t provided _any_ cites. In a debate, the person making the claim has the responsibility to back up their assertions, it’s not up to others to disprove them.
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### Author:  [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/99 "2017-06-01T20:47:40Z")
> [@Chimera](#):
>
> Isn’t \>1,000 people a year killed by police a real cite?
Not only is that a cite, it says nothing about what occurs during police training.
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### Author:  [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)
#### Post date: [June 1, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-police-so-quick-to-kill/787689/100 "2017-06-01T20:55:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Some states have made it a criminal offense not to produce ID, and the Supreme Court has upheld that (in somewhat limited circumstances). CA is not such a state, based on that thread.
Not “produce ID”; identify oneself.
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