# Why are pro-choice advocates so passionate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2004, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616 "2004-11-25T09:06:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/21 "2004-11-25T21:02:17Z")
The fundamental problem with the abortion debate is that it boils down to some very hard choices in many instances, and some very “gray area” morality. What do you do when the choice is between the health and safety of the mother and that of the fetus? Only one might live, or live unmaimed? You want the docnkey-ass government making decisions like that for people? That’s what I call naive, man. When does a zygote become a person? I don’t know. I dont think anyone else does. If we could reach a consensus, that would sove the problem, but until such a consensus is realizable, I’m not surrendering women’s bodies to the government. The reason it’s an arguemnt worth getting passionate about is that moms will die and be maimed if the anti-choice crew gets their way. I know it’s liberal and radical and all, but hell, I’m passonately against moms getting killed and maimed. I’m always kinda surprised about how blase the anti-choice crew are about it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/22 "2004-11-25T22:35:02Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > But they are. Planned Parenthood does offer contraceptives, either free or on sliding scale. They do offer classes on safe sex. You can go over there and pick up as much free reproductive-health literature as you wish. Pro-choice issues are always framed in the scale of a larger feminist movement. Most pro-choice people would like to limit the number of abortions too; you’re not going to find many people who are pro-choice and anti-birth control and education. **hawthorne** was saying that if the _pro-life_ side were all about making abortions rarer by promoting sex education and contraceptive use, and also about women’s rights, the debate would be different. I think you read him wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/23 "2004-11-25T23:02:00Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > I’m actually somewhat European by American standards (born in England, raised in the U.S. by British parents) and passionately pro-choice. Some of my passion is a response to that shown by the extremes of the pro-life side in that I don’t like being called a “baby killer” or accused of being in favor of murder. > > More of it comes down to this though. I am a youngish woman, and I’ve been a feminist since I was a teenager. I am aware that any time I have sex, I could become pregnant, and that, despite my best-laid plans (insert double-entendre of your choice), I could become pregnant. I’m aware that, despite the precautions I take, I could be raped. I hope and pray I never find myself in a situation where I am pregnant because I’m not very maternal, and, at my current age, the odds of any child I bear being handicapped are too high for my taste. I do not have what it takes to bear a child to term. > > I also know that, if abortion is made illegal women will still seek them out, and some will die of illegal abortions. I know that if abortion is made illegal in all circumstances as some people would like it to be, it means that in the admittedly rare event that a woman has a pregnancy which threatens her life, the state will mandate that she must die, rather than her child. I cannot imagine what it would be like for a man to have to choose between his wife and his child or a woman between her life and her child’s, but I do _not_ want that to be the government’s decision. I’ve been known to refer to my position as pro-the-awful-choice. I suffer from clinical depression, and I have been suicidal. Two years ago, I was laid off with no job prospects in sight. If I’d become pregnant, I would have become despondent enough that I would have attempted suicide. Hell, I was close enough to suicide even without that problem. To me, this is ultimately about defending the lives of women, just as some pro-lifers see themselves as defending the lives of babies. > > I’m fairly conservative when it comes to matters of sex, and I don’t believe unmarried people should have children. I also believe abortion is immoral and should be avoided if at all practical. I also know that sometimes there are no good choices, only ones which are less bad than others. I would love to see a day when no one ever has an abortion. Until that day, I will do what little I can to keep it safe, legal, and rare, to repeat one of the pro-choice movements mantras. > > Respectfully, > CJ Amen. With the exception that I’m male, so the personal references don’t apply to me personally, what my sister says goes for me as well. In the last analysis, the pro-life movement is stating that they claim the right to force a woman to have a baby, regardless of whether she has any interest or desire in doing so. Divested of the red herrings and straw men, they are saying that if she should become pregnant, regardless of what her intent at the time may have been, she **must** carry that child to term. That is to me an intrusion on her personal integrity to an unsupportable extent. I can sympathize with those who see every embryo as an unborn child which has a right to a life. But I don’t claim the right to make decisions about other people’s bodies. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/24 "2004-11-25T23:23:25Z")
I am pro-choice, and I am not passionate. But since I- personally- will never have one, I can’t see me telling a woman what she can or can’t do with her body. I am also a mild “small l” libertatian, and thus am in favor of less regulation, not more. Finally, the anti-abortion movement supports murder & terrorism againts abortion clinics & Doctors. Thus, they are the side of Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/25 "2004-11-25T23:34:09Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > In a verbal or written argument, pro-choice advocates become as passionate, argumentative, and closed minded as pro-lifers. Why are the arguments from the pro-choice side so passionate? Because at the bottom of it all; it’s my body, and it’s my life. MY life will be affected by this, no matter what I choose. The lives of the anti-choice people will be affected not in the slightest. They will not have to live with my choice, should I decide to abort. They will not have to raise the child, should I decide to keep it. I will be responsible. And to me, having someone impose their will on what I do with my body and my life is something worth getting passionate about. They see this as a moral outrage. I see it as an infringement on my person. > [@](#): > > I hear some of my European friends here telling me that we Americans put too much stock in personal freedom. You people that believe that freedom is overrated and also believe that the freedom to choose abortion is extremely important, how do you justify that? How can you believe that freedom is so important that you overlook what some consider murder, then decide that freedom isn’t all that important? I’m not sure who you mean exactly by “you people” (possibly one of my least favorite phrases, btw); could you be a bit more precise? If you mean pro choice people, I disagree. This is all about freedom. The freedom to make our own choices, the freedom to decide which direction our lives will go in. No one else has the right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body, as long as it does not harm another person. And, I’m sorry, but all the scientific evidence at our disposal leads me to believe that a fetus in the first trimester of pregnancy is not a “person.” See **Evil Captor’s** response to that end. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/26 "2004-11-25T23:37:49Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > I understand why pro-lifers are passionate. They believe that abortion is killing a little baby. And no one wants to kill little babies. But if pro-choice advocates don’t believe that the fetus is a baby, then why do they get so passionate? Because the idea of forcing a person to reproduce disgusts me. The fact that safe, legal abortion has already saved me once from a lifetime of fatherhood doesn’t make me any less passionate. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/27 "2004-11-26T02:22:22Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > **hawthorne** was saying that if the _pro-life_ side were all about making abortions rarer by promoting sex education and contraceptive use, and also about women’s rights, the debate would be different. I think you read him wrong. :smack: That’s what I get for rush posting right before I had to leave for Thanksgiving dinner. Sorry, **hawthorne** , for the mix-up. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/28 "2004-11-26T02:31:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > So the proper way to articulate my position is that I am “passionate” because I believe that the right of a woman to make her own reproductive decisions and to _safely_ terminate a pregnacy is far, far more important than humoring someone else’s _fantasy_ that a zygote is a “person.” Putting aside whether or not a zygote human, _they_ aren’t aborted. The zygote stage lasts less than a week, which is sooner than abortions are preformed, so it’s disingenuine to insist that abortion is okay because zygotes aren’t people; a lot of things aren’t people and aren’t aborted. I’m not pro-choice myself, but I suspect that most of the passionate ones are fearful, which understandably fuels the voracity of their message. I don’t think their fears that the SC will overturn Roe v Wade are justified, but they obviously do. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/29 "2004-11-26T02:33:58Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Putting aside whether or not a zygote human, _they_ aren’t aborted. The zygote stage lasts less than a week, which is sooner than abortions are preformed, so it’s disingenuine to insist that abortion is okay because zygotes aren’t people; a lot of things aren’t people and aren’t aborted. It’s a distinction wihout a difference. An embryo isn’t a person either and there _are_ pro=lifers out there who oppose things live the mornig-after pill because of a theoretical chance that it could prevent the imlantation of a fertilized egg. ---
**Author:** ![hildea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@hildea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildea)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/30 "2004-11-26T06:09:29Z")
My feelings about the right to elective abortion are similar to my feelings about the right to a fair trial. I’ve never needed either, I don’t expect to need either (hopefully!), and as long as those rights are safe, I’m not all that passionate about them. But if either of them were in danger of being taken away, I’d damn sure become passionate! It’s important to know that they are there, that those who need them have them, and that if I should find myself in a situation where I need them, they’d still be there. From a personal point of view: I’ve given birth twice. Both pregnancies and births were pretty much as unproblematic as those things can be - I didn’t even have to be cut while giving birth. Being pregnant was still a heavy burden, giving birth was bloody painful. For me, the children were and are very welcome, very loved, and the burden and the pain were well worth it. But I shudder to imagine going through all that when you don’t want the resulting child. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/31 "2004-11-26T06:52:06Z")
> [@](#): > > **Maureen** said: > Because at the bottom of it all; it’s my body, and it’s my life. MY life will be affected by this, no matter what I choose. The lives of the anti-choice people will be affected not in the slightest. They will not have to live with my choice, should I decide to abort. They will not have to raise the child, should I decide to keep it. I will be responsible. And to me, having someone impose their will on what I do with my body and my life is something worth getting passionate about. They see this as a moral outrage. I see it as an infringement on my person. I agree - but it’s also the potential life of my child. I didn’t have such a great childhood - and, simplifying a lot here, my mom wanted me and my dad didn’t, and never really made any attempt to hide that. Lots of stress, anger, yelling, depression, crying. I know a parent cannot wholly control the life of their child, but until I am damn certain that their life will _not_ be like mine, I will not have children. What pains me the most is not my suffering, but their’s, and that’s something I could never impose on another person. I saw a bumper sticker that said “ABORTION IS THE WORST FORM OF CHILD ABUSE”, and I thought, wow, that person should have spent a couple days at my house. Abortion and bc are so critical because they are the tools that allow us to not have a child in an abusive relationship; to not have that child in the middle of graduate school when keeping a plant alive is a grand accomplishment, etc… I’m “passionate” about abortion because, though I dread the day I would ever choose one, forcing children to be raised by people that should not be having children can be a greater cruelty, in my mind, than an abortion. And of course the question of rights and equality; the current battles against abortion and bc are rooted in the idea that sex is strictly for procreation (preferably within a married couple, of course). For millions of us, this simply is not our definition of sex. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/32 "2004-11-26T08:25:49Z")
Given the choice between having a woman I know have an abortion, or die because she made two mistakes, I find allowing abortions to be the far more ethical choice. That, and I think most of the anti-abortion crowd are hypocrites for failing to adopt every unwanted child that _wasn’t_ aborted. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/33 "2004-11-26T08:58:06Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > First off. Sorry if this has been discussed before. I looked and couldn’t find any similar topic. > Second and most important: **Please let’s keep this thread on topic. It’s not about abortion, but about passion.** As a gay male, I will probably not be affected by the abortion debate too much, but I’d like to offer my own opinion: My passion for this issue is based upon what I see as the tyrrany of the majority; the majority using secular law to enforce their own version of morality. IMHO, the question boils down to when that clump of cells gets to be defined as a human being. Neither side of the debate has given a definitive answer, something that can be tested and verified objectively. As such, the question should be left up to personal conscience, in other words, a choice of options should be available. If a woman wants to abort that clump of cells, that’s fine. If she wants to carry that clump of cells to term and deliver a child, that’s fine, too. I feel she ought to have a right to choose from a variety of options according to the dictates of her own conscience that is based upon her own values and morality rather than being forced to having only one option that is the legislated morality of others. I feel passionately about this because I see the religious morality of one group of people being translated into secular law and forced upon the whole population. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/34 "2004-11-26T18:31:12Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > I’m not sure who you mean exactly by “you people” (possibly one of my least favorite phrases, btw); could you be a bit more precise? Alright. I’ll try. But I don’t know how I can be more precise than > [@](#): > > You people **that > believe that freedom is overrated > and also believe that the freedom to choose abortion is extremely important**… The question was to our European friends that don’t think that freedom\* is so important, but then all of a sudden think that freedom is extremely important. Did that answer your question? See my problem? Freedom=overrated=important. That’s what some people say. The equation doesn’t make sense. \*as in what Americans call freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/35 "2004-11-26T18:35:16Z")
Cite that European people think that “freedom is overrated?” ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/36 "2004-11-26T18:58:11Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Cite that European people think that “freedom is overrated?” Now Diogenes you know bleeping well that I was talking about **some** Europeans. Look at my OP dangit. It would be very difficult for me to remember in which discussions I saw someone say that they felt that we American’s put too much stock in our “freedoms”. But I get the impression that the opinion is not rare. Especially since it’s difficult to argue that Europeans aren’t free. (But it is possible. Still. Let’s not do it here.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/37 "2004-11-26T23:43:22Z")
I find the OP’s attempts to clarifiy the thread premise have only further clouded it. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/38 "2004-11-27T02:08:21Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > Now Diogenes you know bleeping well that I was talking about **some** Europeans. Look at my OP dangit. It would be very difficult for me to remember in which discussions I saw someone say that they felt that we American’s put too much stock in our “freedoms”. But I get the impression that the opinion is not rare. Especially since it’s difficult to argue that Europeans aren’t free. (But it is possible. Still. Let’s not do it here.) I think the issue they take is all the bragging we do about being free, when on a comparative basis we really aren’t THAT free. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/39 "2004-11-27T05:28:48Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > Alright. I’ll try. But I don’t know how I can be more precise thanThe question was to our European friends that don’t think that freedom\* is so important, but then all of a sudden think that freedom is extremely important. > Did that answer your question? > > See my problem? Freedom=overrated=important. That’s what some people say. The equation doesn’t make sense. > \*as in what Americans call freedom. Aaaah. Thank you, I thought by “you people” you meant pro-choice people. Maybe they’re looking at individual freedoms, as opposed to a country that purports to have a “free society.” Many European countries have a lot of the same freedoms we have (as well as a few we don’t have), but recognize that their freedom is circumscribed by the law, and consider it hypocritical to say otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616/40 "2004-11-28T01:35:19Z")
Pro-lifers get passionate because they see the issue framed in terms of murdering little helpless babies. Viewed only from the pro-lifers framing, it makes no sense that someone that was pro-choice would get passionate about a clump of cells they don’t recognize as humans. Pro-choicers don’t frame the issue in terms of a clump of cells. Jane has three kids and works two part time jobs to supplement the income her husband, Bob, brings in. They can make ends meet. As thing are they’ll be financially well off, be able to send their kids to school, and generally live their lifes in peace and moderate prosperity. If Jane has another child, though, she’ll lose her jobs. Bob’s income isn’t sufficient to meet their current expenses. They will lose the house. Jane as already decided to abort if she discovers she’s pregnant again. To have someone assert that a clump of cells warrants destroying the future of an entire family can tend to raise hackles. To further hear it asserted that these people somehow deserve to have their lives ruined raises them further. Just toss on a “baby killer” and it’s a free for all. Not to say that a single college student should be forced to incubate a parasite for nine months as punishment for her immoral lifestyle in a ivory tower full of fornicating heathens, either. Weighing a clump of cells of arguable humanity aginst the self-evident hopes and dreams of an adult human female… the girl still wins the right to choose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-pro-choice-advocates-so-passionate/276616.md?page=3)