# Why are Republicans often seen as the "bad guys"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 17, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008 "2016-05-17T16:16:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/81 "2016-05-18T15:18:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Socialism sounds good on paper. Shame we don’t live on a notepad. Right below “unregulated free market” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/82 "2016-05-18T15:26:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Right below “unregulated free market” Do you believe that the US is an unregulated free market? Regards, Shodan PS - there are three words in the part in your quote marks, not two. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/83 "2016-05-18T15:26:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a cite of Republicans saying that they believe fossil fuels are infinite? I can’t find it, but a couple/few years ago there was a conservative person claiming that fossil fuels are infinite. I can’t remember if he said that it was continuously being made (at a rate higher than we’re extracting it), or if God makes it. But there was at least that one. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/84 "2016-05-18T15:30:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe that the US is an unregulated free market? > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - there are three words in the part in your quote marks, not two. Did I say I did? **octopus** was saying socialism doesn’t work. One of the goals of the GOP is eliminating government regulations on the basis they stifle businesses. And they tend to be big on the free market fixing everything. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/85 "2016-05-18T15:36:57Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > To be fair the EPA was signed into existence by Richard Nixon, a well-known Republican. > > Forty years on, rank and file Republican voters and/or their congressmen want to abolish the EPA ([Cite](http://www.usobserver.com/archive/july-11/epa-abolished.html)). Someone in my online social group who lives in a Conservative part of the country and keeps posting anti-Liberal propaganda said to me last week, ‘The EPA is shit!’ Clearly these people believe that the EPA is ‘evil’. Since the EPA is concerned with keeping our air and water clean (among other things), and the EPA is ‘evil’, ‘Clean air and water=evil’ by the Transitive Property of Equality. Huge holes in that logic. You assume that “EPA” = “clean air”. You also assume that there is no other way to obtain clean air other than the EPA. In reality, of course, we all make trade-offs between the air we think is “clean enough” and the cost it would take to make the air “as clean as humanly possible”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/86 "2016-05-18T15:40:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I can’t find it, but a couple/few years ago there was a conservative person claiming that fossil fuels are infinite. I can’t remember if he said that it was continuously being made (at a rate higher than we’re extracting it), or if God makes it. But there was at least that one. Let’s suppose you could find one Republican who said that. What would that prove, other than one Republican thinks it? Do you really want to play the game that whatever one Republican or Democrat says means the whole party believes it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/87 "2016-05-18T15:43:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Huge holes in that logic. You assume that “EPA” = “clean air”. You also assume that there is no other way to obtain clean air other than the EPA. In reality, of course, we all make trade-offs between the air we think is “clean enough” and the cost it would take to make the air “as clean as humanly possible”. In reality, of course, the EPA regulations did clean up the air. Sure, private industry can clean up their own act. But air pollution didn’t magically appear in the '60s so that Nixon could form the EPA in the '70s. It was a known problem that people wanted to fix for decades before that. So your implied argument that private industry can voluntarily reduce the pollutants they emit has been shown to be false. In the present day, businesses balk at taking measures mandated (or proposed) by the EPA to clean up emissions. Do you think they will voluntarily undertake these measures if only they were not mandated? I think it’s unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/88 "2016-05-18T15:46:49Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I can’t find it, but a couple/few years ago there was a conservative person claiming that fossil fuels are infinite. I can’t remember if he said that it was continuously being made (at a rate higher than we’re extracting it), or if God makes it. But there was at least that one. And this shows that Republicans believe that fossil fuels are infinite? You will, of course, accept the same standard of evidence for Democrats. Right? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/89 "2016-05-18T16:00:53Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Did I say I did? > **octopus** was saying socialism doesn’t work. > One of the goals of the GOP is eliminating government regulations on the basis they stifle businesses. And they tend to be big on the free market fixing everything. Hey I’m not afraid to admit that the GOP has issues. Here’s an issue that I feel strongly about and had me tempted to vote Dem this presidential cycle as a symbolic gesture of thanks for being on the side I feel is right. [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/your-money/new-rules-for-retirement-accounts-financial-advisers.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/your-money/new-rules-for-retirement-accounts-financial-advisers.html?_r=0) I’m not a huge fan of the religious zealots on the right as a whole. I never claimed the Republican Party was perfect or in all ways superior to the left. But for me the biggest issue is concentration of power. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/90 "2016-05-18T16:57:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Since the EPA is concerned with keeping our air and water clean (among other things), and the EPA is ‘evil’, ‘Clean air and water=evil’ by the Transitive Property of Equality. I’m not a Republican at all, but this is poor logic. It assumes both that the _only_ outcome of having the EPA is clean air and water, and that the _only_ way to have clean air and water is through the EPA. Neither of those assumptions are true. Real life doesn’t really work like an Aristotelian syllogism. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/91 "2016-05-18T17:19:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe that the US is an unregulated free market? No, but not for lack of trying, and it will eventually get there if we are not vigilant. Thirty years ago, free market economics was not even taught in universities other than in passing as a curious but unworkable theory, but through huge donations, the curriculum is now available, and in some cases required by the donors, on hundreds of campuses. The defunding of regulatory agencies has been the first step in doing away with oversight, and tax cuts like those by Reagan and Bush (and shamefully allowed to continue by Obama) are netting astounding profits for large corporations, while the gap between the haves and have-nots gets ever larger. An unregulated market means a return to the bad old days of the Gilded Age, despite how it’s being spun by the New Right. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/92 "2016-05-18T17:29:25Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > No, but not for lack of trying, and it will eventually get there if we are not vigilant. Thirty years ago, free market economics was not even taught in universities other than in passing as a curious but unworkable theory, but through huge donations, the curriculum is now available, and in some cases required by the donors, on hundreds of campuses. The defunding of regulatory agencies has been the first step in doing away with oversight, and tax cuts like those by Reagan and Bush (and shamefully allowed to continue by Obama) are netting astounding profits for large corporations, while the gap between the haves and have-nots gets ever larger. An unregulated market means a return to the bad old days of the Gilded Age, despite how it’s being spun by the New Right. Capitalism is what provides the wealth for the redistributers to dole out for a vote. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/93 "2016-05-18T17:36:17Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I’m not a Republican at all, but this is poor logic. It assumes both that the _only_ outcome of having the EPA is clean air and water, and that the _only_ way to have clean air and water is through the EPA. Neither of those assumptions are true. Real life doesn’t really work like an Aristotelian syllogism. What’s your suggestion for regulating pollution? I experienced smog(L.A. Basin) so thick the CHP was running traffic breaks due to poor visibility. [Superfund sites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites) [Love Canal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal) The recent mess in Flint, Michigan ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/94 "2016-05-18T17:37:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Capitalism is what provides the wealth for the redistributers to dole out for a vote. I wasn’t aware that social safety nets were paid from private funds. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/95 "2016-05-18T17:41:03Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I wasn’t aware that social safety nets were paid from private funds. :smack: You do understand that taxing the private funds is what provides the social safety nets? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/96 "2016-05-18T17:46:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > :smack: > > You do understand that taxing the private funds is what provides the social safety nets? Not the way you phrased it. You’ve said you favor a basic income. Where is that money going to come from and how is it different than the current system? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/97 "2016-05-18T17:54:12Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I’m not a Republican at all, but this is poor logic. It assumes both that the _only_ outcome of having the EPA is clean air and water, and that the _only_ way to have clean air and water is through the EPA. Neither of those assumptions are true. Real life doesn’t really work like an Aristotelian syllogism. First, remember the topic of this thread: \*\*Why are Republicans often seen as the “bad guys”? In [Post 11](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19337434&postcount=11) **running coach** listed ‘Republican positions’. He did not say whether those were actual positions or perceived positions. Nevertheless, the list answers the question in the thread title. **John Mace** said, ‘OK, let’s start with the first one and work our way down. Cite?’ In [Post 18](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19337557&postcount=18) **quicksilver** provided a cite. In addition, Republicans are calling the EPA [‘has become a fascist threat to all Americans.’](http://gulagbound.com/45505/a-raging-out-of-control-epa-sanctioned-theft-from-americans/) I hope we can agree that fascism is evil. The [Oath Keepers FB page](https://www.facebook.com/OKNational/posts/1157901247576873) says ‘The EPA is every bit as evil, and anti-liberty as the BLM.’ The [Tea Party](http://www.conservativeteapartycaliforniastyle.com/2011/04/epa-evil-rogue-agency-it-is-powerful.html) says ‘EPA - AN EVIL ROGUE AGENCY’. To [Michelle Bachman](http://ndn.org/blog/2011/08/elimination-environmental-protection-agency-central-gop-presidential-hopefuls), ‘the EPA is the evil heavy handed regulatory agenda of the Obama Administration.’ There is plenty of evidence that Republicans think the EPA is evil. Now to your post. Can you please quote me where I said ‘that the _ **only** _ outcome of having the EPA is clean air and water, and that the _ **only** _ way to have clean air and water is through the EPA.’? I can’t seem to find it. In any case, the United States was much more polluted before the EPA came about, and EPA regulations _did_ cause people, businesses, and corporations reduce their pollution outputs. I can think of a way that this can be done _without_ EPA regulations: Polluters can say, ‘You know? We’re going to put scrubbers on our smokestacks and stop dumping waste into our rivers and contain nitrogen and phosphorus so that it doesn’t destroy other people’s livelihoods and do all sorts of other things to clean up our country.’ So you see? EPA regulations are not the _only_ way to reduce pollution. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/98 "2016-05-18T18:01:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Not the way you phrased it. > > You’ve said you favor a basic income. Where is that money going to come from and how is it different than the current system? Basic income would come from taxation. Ok let’s divide the populace into 3 groups for sake of argument. Population A: those who make more than minimum wage. Population B: those who make minimum wage. Population C: those who do or would make less than minimum wage. Now lets deal with productivity or wealth generation whatever you want to call it. The sum of the output of A, B, C is total productivity P. Without a minimum wage the portion generated by C increases. Why? Because that population which is under or unemployed due to the wage floor is now working for market value and generating wealth. This is a net gain for society as a first order effect. Now what about a second order effect. The time that population C can spend doing destructive or counterproductive activities decreases in some proportion. Furthermore by being part of the official taxpaying employed population employable skills such as punctuality, following instructions, etc. are internalized. Another bonus is that those in population C have skin in the game and are actually part of the wealth generating machine. If P2 is greater than P1 society in the aggregate is benefiting from the larger amounts of wealth and services. That by itself ought to be sufficient to advocate need based aid or a basic income with no minimum wage policy. But wait there’s more. We have excess productive potential in the United States. We could produce vast amounts more. Why don’t we? I believe in large part due to a deficit in demand which is a function of insufficient money velocity. Tax the upper class more and institute a basic income and the net result is not only does productivity increase but the lower classes have a higher standard of living and the money flows right back to the capitalist class. In my opinion, it’s in the best interest of society (even the wealthy) to tax a bit more, redistribute a bit more, and remove price floors and caps. Honestly, I don’t see why more liberals and conservatives don’t come together to implement such a scheme. What’s the point of having idle factories and idle cities when those means of production can generate wealth if there wasn’t a shortage of demand? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/99 "2016-05-18T18:01:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Wrong. The wacky right-wingers think he is a deity. They’re the ones calling him ‘messiah’. Oh… I thought that was just their accent. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008/100 "2016-05-18T18:05:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a cite of Republicans saying that they believe fossil fuels are infinite? I was not aware that it was in dispute that Republicans tend to be very pro-fossil fuels and anti-renewable energy. I know it tends to be due to their connections to the oil, gas and coal industries, rather than what they may or may not actually believe. But their policies clearly treat fossil fuels as if they will not run out ever. And don’t even get me started on the environment. > [@octopus](#): > > Socialism sounds good on paper. Shame we don’t live on a notepad. a) I don’t think socialism sounds good on paper. Why shouldn’t people who work smarter, harder and more successfully than those who don’t or can’t? b) You still need to figure out what to do with all those people who don’t or can’t succeed in a capitalist environment. They don’t just disappear because they can’t get into business school and become Goldman Sachs investment bankers. c) Do you understand the difference between “socialism” and creating shared services and social safety nets? d) Are you aware that there are various forms of “socialism” and “capitalism” that are more or less effective than others? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-often-seen-as-the-bad-guys/755008.md?page=6)