# Why are Republicans so obtuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412 "2010-02-02T18:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/101 "2010-02-03T04:50:34Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What do you think is crafted unfairly? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Beadalin] Did you read the questions in the poll? How would you have crafted them differently? [/QUOTE] No, actually, I didn’t read the poll. Basically, I think polls like this are crap, but that’s another thread. What I was referring to was the OP’s characterizations. Here: > [@](#): > > More than half aren’t sure if Obama is a citizen. Two-thirds think he hates white people. Over half thinks he wants the terrorists to win. Ridiculous! I could have crafted a similar poll aimed at liberals asking if they thought that Bush hated black people, if Bush knew before hand that 9/11 was going to happen and perhaps had a hand in it, if Bush was a fundamentalist Christian who was going to put prayer in schools and make abortion illegal, and all manner of other questions. What do you suppose the results would have been? Think half of self identified liberals would have said that, yeah, he hates black folks? That he knew about 9/11 before hand? That he actually set it up and played it through? That he was going to push through prayer in school and outlaw abortion? I’m fairly confident that I could craft a poll that would push the buttons of liberals and make them look equally ridiculous…or even a poll to American’s (or any other countries citizens…how about a poll of Germans asking if the US was responsible for 9/11, say?) in general that would do the same. It’s all in how you ask the question, and what response you allow. If you want to get all hot and bothered about this and think that American’s are getting stupider…well, knock yourselves out. Personally, I think that American’s are as stupid as they have ever been, especially where religion and politics are concerned. What I find amusing is the fact that conservatives think liberals are stupid (and evil), and liberals think the same things about conservatives. -XT ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/102 "2010-02-03T04:52:54Z")
The poll that indicated Fox News is the most trusted news source was not biased but the one that shows Pubs are morons is biased. We know this because Fox News is trustworthy and Pubs aren’t morons. Why are all you liberals denying the facts? It’s as plain as a pikestaff. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/103 "2010-02-03T04:59:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I could have crafted a similar poll aimed at liberals asking if they thought that Bush hated black people After Katrina a lot of people might have thought that. Or at least it wasn’t as big a deal. > [@](#): > > if Bush knew before hand that 9/11 was going to happen and perhaps had a hand in it Too broad. He did know that _Bin Laden_ [was] _Determined to Strike Within US_. > [@](#): > > if Bush was a fundamentalist Christian who was going to put prayer in schools and make abortion illegal, He did appoint very conservative SCOTUS judges. > [@](#): > > and all manner of other questions. What do you suppose the results would have been? Think half of self identified liberals would have said that, yeah, he hates black folks? That he knew about 9/11 before hand? That he actually set it up and played it through? That he was going to push through prayer in school and outlaw abortion? I’m fairly confident that I could craft a poll that would push the buttons of liberals and make them look equally ridiculous…or even a poll to American’s (or any other countries citizens…how about a poll of Germans asking if the US was responsible for 9/11, say?) in general that would do the same. It’s all in how you ask the question, and what response you allow. The questions were very straight forward. Don’t you see how these questions aren’t at all the same? All of the ones you asked are plausible. Obama wanting the US to fail isn’t. > [@](#): > > If you want to get all hot and bothered about this and think that American’s are getting stupider…well, knock yourselves out. Personally, I think that American’s are as stupid as they have ever been, especially where religion and politics are concerned. What I find amusing is the fact that conservatives think liberals are stupid (and evil), and liberals think the same things about conservatives. It is the height of intellectual laziness to assume that both sides are equally bad. Right now, the right has some queer ideas. It’s not bad to call them out on it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/104 "2010-02-03T05:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] The poll that indicated Fox News is the most trusted news source was not biased but the one that shows Pubs are morons is biased. We know this because Fox News is trustworthy and Pubs aren’t morons. Why are all you liberals denying the facts? It’s as plain as a pikestaff. [/QUOTE] Sez who? Why would you question one but give another a pass? Or vice versa? [QUOTE=Lobohan] After Katrina a lot of people might have thought that. Or at least it wasn’t as big a deal. [/QUOTE] Uhuh. > [@](#): > > Too broad. He did know that Bin Laden [was] Determined to Strike Within US. Again…uhuh. > [@](#): > > He did appoint very conservative SCOTUS judges. And if Obama has the chance to appoint SCOTUS judges, will they be conservatives as well? Will the right be correct in their ranting that Obama’s master plan of taking their guns away be a rational position for them to take? What will the polls say? > [@](#): > > The questions were very straight forward. Don’t you see how these questions aren’t at all the same? All of the ones you asked are plausible. Obama wanting the US to fail isn’t. Again, I didn’t read the questions from the poll…I was responding to the quoted part of the OP. However, based on the answers I’m seeing, I think the fix was in. Here’s the thing…people who craft polls know all about human psychology. If you REALLY want to get good data from a poll you give a wide range of possible answers (strongly favor, favor, neutral, disfavor, strongly disfavor, etc) and you do multiple polls. Perhaps that’s what these folks did…admittedly, again, I didn’t read it. But I have my doubts. > [@](#): > > It is the height of intellectual laziness to assume that both sides are equally bad. Right now, the right has some queer ideas. It’s not bad to call them out on it. Well, I’m intellectually lazy…no argument from me there. But it’s the height of partisan dishonesty to point at the mote in the other guys eye without acknowledging your own. Certainly when they spew crazy stuff (such as that mentioned in the OP) it’s only right to call them on it. But one needs to acknowledge that while on THIS subject the other side might be nutters, on another the nutbar shifts to point at one’s own, and trying to claim that ‘reality’ has a bias that favors one’s side is just another way of tattooing a sign on one’s forehead saying ‘partisan tool’. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Zephyurs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/dfb087/32.png) [@Zephyurs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyurs)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/105 "2010-02-03T05:28:21Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, I’m intellectually lazy…no argument from me there. But it’s the height of partisan dishonesty to point at the mote in the other guys eye without acknowledging your own. Certainly when they spew crazy stuff (such as that mentioned in the OP) it’s only right to call them on it. But one needs to acknowledge that while on THIS subject the other side might be nutters, on another the nutbar shifts to point at one’s own, and trying to claim that ‘reality’ has a bias that favors one’s side is just another way of tattooing a sign on one’s forehead saying ‘partisan tool’. Well, a person is just as much a partisan tool if they throw out the “both sides are equally bad regardless of the facts at hand” diversion anytime that person’s own side looks bad. Sometimes, facts are facts. Evolution happened. Anthropogenic climate change is happening. Obama was born in the USA and is an American citizen. It’s revolting to ban people from teaching just because they’re gay. Simply because one side says one thing and the other disagrees doesn’t mean the answer is somewhere in between. And yeah, of course there are lots of Democrats who believe stupid things. But, do you seriously believe that if a Democratic partisan collected a list of incredibly stupid things Republican officials (defined as governors, House reps, or people higher) have said and a Republican did the same for Democratic officials, the competition would be close in the slightest? Hell, even statements from Southern Republicans alone would swamp Democrats nationwide. Though in all fairness, if you excluded the South, you’d probably have rough parity in partisan stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/106 "2010-02-03T05:54:28Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > This just shows me you are a bunch of pathetic cowards. The fact that you find aspects of this thread utterly confusing does not grant you liberty to insult other posters while it is in the Great Debates forum. Do not post insults in Great Debates. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/107 "2010-02-03T07:42:32Z")
> [@Slypork](#): > > No republican I know has these views. Sure there are the wackos that call in to Michael Savage or watch Beck but I’ve never actually met one of them. I live in a pretty conservative, semi-rural area and the craziest thing I ever heard someone say about Obama is that he used meth. I told him that Obama admitted to using coke but never said anything about meth. If only there were a scientific way of determining the views of a group by looking at a representative sample. Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/108 "2010-02-03T07:51:29Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Why are all you liberals denying the facts? It’s as plain as a pikestaff. I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/109 "2010-02-03T08:34:05Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I could have crafted a similar poll aimed at liberals asking if they thought that Bush hated black people, if Bush knew before hand that 9/11 was going to happen and perhaps had a hand in it, if Bush was a fundamentalist Christian who was going to put prayer in schools and make abortion illegal, and all manner of other questions. What do you suppose the results would have been? 35% of Democrats Think [Bush Knew of 9/11 Attacks in Advance](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance); 26% Unsure ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/110 "2010-02-03T09:26:30Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > 35% of Democrats Think [Bush Knew of 9/11 Attacks in Advance](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance); 26% Unsure The trouble with that one is “Bin Laden Determined to Strike Within the US”. How many people would take that briefing as a yes to that question? I wouldn’t, but most people aren’t as reasonable as me. 😃 Also, Rassmusen in particular has a reputation for consistently skewing to the right. [http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/01/is-rasmussen-reports-biased.html](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/01/is-rasmussen-reports-biased.html) Is that the same thing as thinking that Obama is a crazed terrorist? I’d say no, but I can see where people might diverge. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/111 "2010-02-03T10:32:07Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > What is this where the great debaters come to slam posters behind their backs. Why can’t you say it in the forum this was posted on? This just shows me you are a bunch of pathetic cowards. Most of these posts were made in the Pit, where insults are allowde. Now that this thread is in Great Debates, no more name calling. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/112 "2010-02-03T14:59:56Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > 35% of Democrats Think [Bush Knew of 9/11 Attacks in Advance](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/bush_administration/22_believe_bush_knew_about_9_11_attacks_in_advance); 26% Unsure It is an indisputable fact that Bush knew bin Laden would attack the US. Saying that Bush knew an attack was coming is not the same as saying he was in on it. Yopu won’t find anything comparable to the birth garbage or secret Muslim bullshit, or using fucking Genesis as a science book. Seriously, 77% of you people think that Genesis should be taught as scientific fact. Democrats can’t touch something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/113 "2010-02-03T15:35:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > RNATB, our discussion has been a bit confusing. Do you really think that the people selected to participate in this poll were selected from voter rolls? If so, why? > > My position is that we have no info about how participants were selected other than that they identified themselves as Republicans. The list could have been created from those that voluntarily filled out a survey online. Why go to the expense of tracking down Republicans when there’s already a freely available list of them? I mean, they _might_ have been solicited online or something, but what’s the point? Now, for the record I believe telephone polls are nearly as self-selecting as internet polls - I mean, if you don’t want to participate, you hang up. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/114 "2010-02-03T15:43:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The trouble with that one is “Bin Laden Determined to Strike Within the US”. How many people would take that briefing as a yes to that question? That’s the problem with these polls. You want to express hatred of “their guy” but you’ve only got one question: Did Bush cause 9/11? So you give the only answer you can that will reflect poorly on Bush. You say he caused it. Of course, you have to do some mental gymnastics to get from “received a briefing and ranked it’s credibility lower than he should have” to “Bush caused/wanted 9/11” but you’re willing to do that just to take a swipe at the other guy. It’s exactly comparable to “Is Obama a citizen?” Well, you don’t want to say that their side was right, so you have to give “your side’s” answer and try to do some more gymnastics to make it sound plausible. “Well, yeah, he was born in the US, but his father’s a Kenyan muslim and he lived outside the US, so he’s _just barely_ a citizen, so I’ll say he’s not.” Same goes for “Does Obama/Bush hate white/black people?” I wish I had something on the web to cite, but all I have are some vague notes from a 2008 “Parties and Elections” course where we looked at things like this. What I do know is that if you stir in some debatable, I-respect-your-intelligence questions like “Does Obama have the best plan for health care reform?” and the ones I mentioned previously, you don’t get as many stupid answers to the are-you-a-newt questions. Sometimes I wonder what the results would be if they added “Seriously, honestly, do you believe…” to the beginning of the survey question, but I don’t think anyone did that study yet. Can someone help find a cite for the study I mentioned? Where they ask silly questions in one survey and silly-serious questions in another and compared them? I have no idea what the author or title were. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/115 "2010-02-03T15:47:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It is an indisputable fact that Bush knew bin Laden would attack the US. Saying that Bush knew an attack was coming is not the same as saying he was in on it. Depends on how the question was asked. I can’t see from the link what the actual question was. > [@](#): > > Yopu won’t find anything comparable to the birth garbage or secret Muslim bullshit, or using fucking Genesis as a science book. Seriously, 77% of you people think that Genesis should be taught as scientific fact. Democrats can’t touch something like that. They can come pretty close. [More than half of Kerry voters want creationism taught alongside evolution](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/116 "2010-02-03T15:59:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They can come pretty close. [More than half of Kerry voters want creationism taught alongside evolution](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml) Oh my god. We’re _all_ fucking idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/117 "2010-02-03T16:53:58Z")
Actually, the woman I’m fucking is quite bright. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/118 "2010-02-03T17:01:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We’re _all_ fucking idiots. Well, your partner is, anyway. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/119 "2010-02-03T17:09:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oh my god. We’re _all_ fucking idiots. Yeah, but I will worry only if the democratic leaders had made a pledge to allow schools to “teach the controversy”. [http://www.alternet.org/story/104037/the\_republican\_war\_on\_science\_isn't\_going\_anywhere\_/?page=2](http://www.alternet.org/story/104037/the_republican_war_on_science_isn%27t_going_anywhere_/?page=2) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412/120 "2010-02-03T17:16:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Men are generally more conservative than women in the US. Old people are more conservative than young people. People in the South and West are more conservative than people in the North and Midwest. They’re all overrepresented. Nate Silver at [fivethirtyeight.com](http://fivethirtyeight.com) comments on this but not that the poll is flawed (and if it was flawed he is definitely the guy who would gleefully point it out). Rather he comments on what this means. > [@](#): > > What I found more striking, actually, were the cross-tabs. On just about every question, the results showed essentially no difference based on age, gender, race, or geography – once we’ve established that you’re a Republican, these differences seem to be rendered moot. > > \ > > This doesn’t, by the way, mean that all Republicans are the same – clearly there is some diversity of opinion within the party (although they’re relatively small). What it does mean is that these ideological differences are just about all there are. If you take two Republican Congressional candidates and put them in the same primary, the outcome is liable to be the same whether that primary takes place in Alabama, Michigan, Idaho or Rhode Island, and whether the electorate is older or younger, more male or more female. > > This accounts for what might be the Republicans’ greatest strength as we head into the November midterms as well as their greatest liability. > > SOURCE: [http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/02/mcgop-virtues-and-vices-of-sameness.html](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/02/mcgop-virtues-and-vices-of-sameness.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-republicans-so-obtuse/527412.md?page=7)