# Why are sawed off shotguns illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944 "2018-03-03T01:48:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/1 "2018-03-03T01:48:40Z")
Compared to an AR-15, a shotgun’s firepower seems quaint. \*Only \*2-8 shots? The spread is nothing like it is in the movies and games, you still have to aim, fire from the hip and you will probably miss. Yet the small, spread out pellets still drastically limits your effective lethal range. They won’t go through all but the shoddiest of body armor. So by what rationale have they been banned? They are so illegal that I’ve read that having a hacksaw stored on the same shelf as a shotgun is about the same crime as having an illegal machine-gun. ---
**Author:** ![Palooka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/palooka/32/2902_2.png) [@Palooka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palooka)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/2 "2018-03-03T01:52:47Z")
It’s basically a modification done to smuggle your shotgun into places you’re not supposed to have a shotgun and usually to commit a crime while you’re there. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/3 "2018-03-03T01:58:14Z")
Yep. Sawed-off shotguns were the bank robbers best friend. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/4 "2018-03-03T02:01:40Z")
Context of 1934, social stereotypes at the time. They’re not illegal though, you just have to pay a $200 tax stamp and wait a long time for approval (I think it’s around 9 months+ today). Short barreled rifles are under the same restrictions. I’d be very surprised if anyone was prosecuted for “having a hacksaw stored on the same shelf as a shotgun” though you’re probably being facetious. It is not illegal to own e.g. a short barrel for an AR-15, but it is illegal to mount it on a receiver without the stamp. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/5 "2018-03-03T02:18:09Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I’d be very surprised if anyone was prosecuted for “having a hacksaw stored on the same shelf as a shotgun” though you’re probably being facetious. It is not illegal to own e.g. a short barrel for an AR-15, but it is illegal to mount it on a receiver without the stamp. > **[Constructive possession](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_possession)** > > Constructive possession is a legal fiction to describe a situation in which an individual has actual control over chattels or real property without actually having physical control of the same assets. At law, a person with constructive possession stands in the same legal position as someone with actual possession. > For example, if one's car sits in one's driveway, one has physical possession. However, any person with the key has constructive possession, as they may take physical possession at any... _A person can be charged with constructive possession of an illegal device if they possess the otherwise legal material to assemble it. If a person has in his possession or control the ingredients to make an explosive device, he can be charged with constructive possession of that device._ ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/6 "2018-03-03T02:34:17Z")
There are guns on the market that many uninformed folks would consider a sawed off shotgun. 14" smooth bore barrel, shoots shotshells, and something that resembles a pistol grip except for the angle. However it is not a shotgun. Why not you might ask. Federal law defines a shotgun as having a smooth bore and designed to be fired from the shoulder. No shoulder stock, not a shotgun. GaryM ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/7 "2018-03-03T02:35:03Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > {…} Yet the small, spread out pellets still drastically limits your effective lethal range. {…} You are talking 12 gauge, right? In that case, a 12g 00 buck shell sends nine large caliber pellets, slightly smaller than .38 or 9mm, flying at over 1,300 feet per second. At close range, why are you using a sawed off at any other range, the spread isn’t really a factor. Sounds pretty damned lethal to me. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/8 "2018-03-03T04:18:41Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > [Constructive possession - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_possession) > _A person can be charged with constructive possession of an illegal device if they possess the otherwise legal material to assemble it. If a person has in his possession or control the ingredients to make an explosive device, he can be charged with constructive possession of that device._ Not quite in this case. [PDF](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download), but the summary is (copy paste doesn’t work well with this doc) that in 1992 parts kits were deemed okay. However, if it is apparent that the parts serve no other purpose except to make an NFA weapon, it’s not okay. As far as ARs, the general rule is “once a rifle always a rifle.” You can buy bare receivers and build a rifle or a pistol off of it. You can have AR rifle and pistol parts in your house, even though you could potentially put a pistol barrel on a rifle. But you can’t put a pistol barrel on a receiver once it’s been a rifle without going through NFA. > [@GaryM](#): > > There are guns on the market that many uninformed folks would consider a sawed off shotgun. 14" smooth bore barrel, shoots shotshells, and something that resembles a pistol grip except for the angle. However it is not a shotgun. Why not you might ask. > > Federal law defines a shotgun as having a smooth bore and designed to be fired from the shoulder. No shoulder stock, not a shotgun. > > GaryM The Mossberg Shockwave is the most popular one right now. This is true, though a weirder case. Normally, these are under the NFA but subject to a $5 tax instead of $200. But in this specific case, it is exempt per ATF rules. It’s not a legal shotgun because no butt and not a pistol because no rifling. ---
**Author:** ![Joanie\_Loves\_Trotsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d78d45/32.png) [@Joanie\_Loves\_Trotsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joanie_Loves_Trotsky)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/9 "2018-03-03T18:24:01Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Not quite in this case. [PDF](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download), but the summary is (copy paste doesn’t work well with this doc) that in 1992 parts kits were deemed okay. However, if it is apparent that the parts serve no other purpose except to make an NFA weapon, it’s not okay. > > As far as ARs, the general rule is “once a rifle always a rifle.” You can buy bare receivers and build a rifle or a pistol off of it. You can have AR rifle and pistol parts in your house, even though you could potentially put a pistol barrel on a rifle. But you can’t put a pistol barrel on a receiver once it’s been a rifle without going through NFA. > > The Mossberg Shockwave is the most popular one right now. This is true, though a weirder case. Normally, these are under the NFA but subject to a $5 tax instead of $200. But in this specific case, it is exempt per ATF rules. It’s not a legal shotgun because no butt and not a pistol because no rifling. The Shockwave is fun as hell to shoot, too, though it wouldn’t serve any purpose I can think of (that my current firearms don’t already do better). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/10 "2018-03-03T21:57:24Z")
Handguns are not all that effective and rifles require a long barrel to attain high effectiveness. Sawed-off shotguns give you long gun effectiveness in an easy to carry and conceal form. They’re usually difficult to match forensically because of the smoothbore barrel and commonality of the ammo. Most criminals don’t need more range than a shotgun provides and they’d rather not shoot at body armor-protected police unless they’re uncommonly dumb/suicidal or there’s a serious social breakdown. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/11 "2018-03-03T22:15:50Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Handguns are not all that effective and rifles require a long barrel to attain high effectiveness. Does a rifle with a 12" or 16" barrel not have the same effectiveness as a shotgun with the same barrel length? Am genuinely asking, I don’t know why a particular bullet shape/barrel twist would be more effective with a barrel of a given length. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/12 "2018-03-03T22:28:55Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Does a rifle with a 12" or 16" barrel not have the same effectiveness as a shotgun with the same barrel length? Perhaps but 12-16’’ barrels are not that short. If we’re talking about sawed-off shotguns, we should be looking at weapons with 8’’ barrels or less. Rifles are much more dependent on velocity for their effectiveness, have proportionately more powder which is slower-burning and therefore require a longer barrel. AR-15-like rifles are especially reliant on high velocity. Shotgun powder is about as quick-burning as pistol powder. I’m having difficulty finding charts of muzzle velocity for very short barrel shotguns. Perhaps someone else has better Googling skills. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/13 "2018-03-03T22:57:43Z")
The 1934 National Firearms Act banned a lot of different guns. > **[National Firearms Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act)** > > The National Firearms Act (NFA), 73rd Congress, Sess. 2, ch. 757, 48 Stat. 1236 was enacted on June 26, 1934, and currently codified and amended as I.R.C. ch. 53. The law is an Act of Congress in the United States that, in general, imposes an excise tax on the manufacture and transfer of certain firearms and mandates the registration of those firearms. The NFA is also referred to as Title II of the federal firearms laws, with the Gun Control Act of 1968 ("GCA") as Title I. > All transfers of owner... Fully automatic guns Shotguns with barrels under 18" Short barrel rifles Silencers Firearms with a caliber larger than 50 (except shotguns) Destructive devices (grenades, explosives, poisoned gas) Some of them should be banned. But short barrel shotguns, short barrel rifles and silencers could be legalized. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/14 "2018-03-03T23:04:56Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Most criminals don’t need more range than a shotgun provides and they’d rather not shoot at body armor-protected police unless they’re uncommonly dumb/suicidal or there’s a serious social breakdown. Most police (non-SWAT) wear Kevlar, which is rated for most pistol rounds but doesn’t work against even the smallest centerfire rifle rounds. > [@SamuelA](#): > > Does a rifle with a 12" or 16" barrel not have the same effectiveness as a shotgun with the same barrel length? Am genuinely asking, I don’t know why a particular bullet shape/barrel twist would be more effective with a barrel of a given length. One of the 2 standard US military (among others) weapons these days is the M4. 14.5 inches. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Shotgun powder is about as quick-burning as pistol powder. Yes, most powder can be used for either. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/15 "2018-03-03T23:13:32Z")
On rereading my post, I realize the emphasis might be read in the wrong place. I meant that most criminals don’t want to get into firefights with cops so defeating body armor is not a high priority. There are exceptions like the North Hollywood shootout or Mexican cartels but generally, criminals are undumb enough to realize that armed confrontation with cops is a bad move and may well end up like this: [Slick Rick - Children's Story + Lyrics - Playback FM - GTA San Andreas - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ZiCYEwhVo) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/16 "2018-03-03T23:16:27Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > On rereading my post, I realize the emphasis might be read in the wrong place. I meant that most criminals don’t want to get into firefights with cops so defeating body armor is not a high priority. There are exceptions like the North Hollywood shootout or Mexican cartels but generally, criminals are undumb enough to realize that armed confrontation with cops is a bad move and may well end up like this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ZiCYEwhVo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ZiCYEwhVo) Oh, I know, was just adding to what you said not contesting it. Most criminals use pistols and would rather avoid police. Yeah, the Shockwave seems like a Gimmick. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/17 "2018-03-03T23:20:50Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Oh, I know, was just adding to what you said not contesting it. Most criminals use pistols and would rather avoid police. > > Yeah, the Shockwave seems like a Gimmick. Handy if you’re trying to clear a toilet stall. 🙂 GaryM ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/18 "2018-03-03T23:41:41Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Compared to an AR-15, a shotgun’s firepower seems quaint. \*Only \*2-8 shots? The spread is nothing like it is in the movies and games, you still have to aim, fire from the hip and you will probably miss. Yet the small, spread out pellets still drastically limits your effective lethal range. They won’t go through all but the shoddiest of body armor. > > So by what rationale have they been banned? They are so illegal that I’ve read that having a hacksaw stored on the same shelf as a shotgun is about the same crime as having an illegal machine-gun. You have a few misconceptions. 8 shots is easily 8 bodies. Several police officers have been killed by shotgun hits that did not penetrate the vest because of the sheer amount of blunt impact they deliver. A load of 00 buckshot weight about 1.25 oz, the largest 9mm bullet weights about .33oz. They also have higher muzzle velocity than many handguns. so you are looking at significantly more total force delivered to the target. [http://www.rem870.com/2012/05/06/shotgun-chokes-explained-cylinder-improved-cylinder-modified-full/](http://www.rem870.com/2012/05/06/shotgun-chokes-explained-cylinder-improved-cylinder-modified-full/) range is a key factor with shotguns. At close range, a hit with a shotgun is catastrophic in ways a rifle round can barely approach. Imagine being hit with 5-9 9mm bullets at once. at 40-50 yards shotguns could very well strike multiple targets standing next to each other. killing all of them if all are hit in critical areas. Aim is less of an issue at those ranges. inside of 20 yards, you definitely still need to aim well ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/19 "2018-03-04T00:23:45Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Several police officers have been killed by shotgun hits that did not penetrate the vest because of the sheer amount of blunt impact they deliver. Why didn’t the recoil kill the shooter? p=mv ---
**Author:** ![mixdenny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mixdenny/32/2962_2.png) [@mixdenny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mixdenny)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944/20 "2018-03-04T00:45:42Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Rifles are much more dependent on velocity for their effectiveness, have proportionately more powder which is slower-burning and therefore require a longer barrel. AR-15-like rifles are especially reliant on high velocity. Shotgun powder is about as quick-burning as pistol powder. Rifle powder is slower, but it is still pretty freakin fast. Maximum pressure in the AR-15 round is reached when the bullet is about 1 3/4" down the barrel. Compared to the max pressure point in pistol ammo which is near instantaneous and occurs before the bullet clears the brass cartridge mouth in some cases. Shotgun ammo reaches peak pressure before the blast wave clears the casing. Pistols based on the AR action are plenty lethal, if not ideal. 10.5" barrel length is considered the practical minimum to achieve good energy. Dennis [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sawed-off-shotguns-illegal/809944.md?page=2)