# Why are sluts so hated and reviled by other women? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 31, 2003, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621 "2003-10-31T09:10:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/81 "2003-11-02T19:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > calm kiwi wrote: > > I still come back to the point that if HE cheats on HIS wife how is that the fault of whoever he cheated with? It’s not the “fault” of the woman, it’s just that when she knowingly helps him cheat, she, well, knowingly helps him cheat. Help. Cheat. Knowingly. These are the key words. She’s responsible for _that_–not for his actions, but for her own. Knowingly helping a guy cheat. (And, BTW, if he lies to her and doesn’t tell her he’s married, she isn’t _knowingly_ helping him cheat, now is she? 😉 ) > [@](#): > > Ellis Dee wrote: > > That’s the crux of the biscuit. Who are you to judge? You’re kidding, right? Why can’t I judge? Why can’t I form an opinion? We judge each other all the time. You’ve judged my comments on this thread and have responded to them. _HOW DARE YOU JUDGE ME?!?!?!?_ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/82 "2003-11-03T07:41:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*Ah. But you’ve added a new wrinkle: the attempted murderer _did_ actually _DO_ something, he just didn’t quite do the damage (murder) that he’d hope he’d do. That’s not the same as someone _trying_ to murder, but never actually going through with it (like, never getting out the gun, never pulling the trigger). There is dead or wounded victim–just a guy who wanted to do something but didn’t (for whatever reason) do it. \*\* OK then, how about the guy who pulls the trigger but the (would-be) victim gets out of the way in time? The guy that shot and missed isn’t a better person than the guy who shoots and gets his target. > [@](#): > > And if he failed, you’d have that warning, and you could dump him before he had the chance to give you something, wouldn’t you? Yes, that’s _the whole point_. You would dump him just as you would dump the guy who actually did cheat on you. > [@](#): > > But does it not hurt at all if he cheats with someone you don’t know? Please go back and read what I posted: “It hurt, but …” > [@](#): > > Is your criteria for hurting someone else dependent on whether you know the person? So you are saying that you’ll help hurt a stranger? That because _you_ don’t know them, their hurt is inconsequential? FFS. I’m not talking about going around deliberately hurting people, but sometimes hurt is an inevitable consequence of your actions. I suppose I could just not ever have a relationship with anybody if I knew there was somebody else interested in them, but that’s not really any way to live your life, is it? :rolleyes: So yeah, in this respect I draw the line at people I know. > [@](#): > > I am not sure what your motivations are in this discussion. I don’t have any ulterior motivations. I’m just explaining why I disagree with you. I know perfectly well it’s not going to change your mind, any more than you’re going to change mine. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/83 "2003-11-03T08:16:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > OK then, how about the guy who pulls the trigger but the (would-be) victim gets out of the way in time? The guy that shot and missed isn’t a better person than the guy who shoots and gets his target. He’s a pig, yeah. But _there’s no dead body._ When a guy cheats but doesn’t succeed (because the woman he hit on refused to go along) he didn’t succeed. And maybe he’ll think better of it next time. Or at the very least, he won’t risk picking up a disease, or getting this woman he tried to pick up pregnant. So is it better that he succeed, or not succeed? Which is it? Or do you really see no difference between risking disease, pregnancy, or _not_ risking disease or pregnancy? > [@](#): > > Yes, that’s _the whole point_. You would dump him just as you would dump the guy who actually did cheat on you. But you are ignoring an important detail: **YOU’D ALSO BE DISEASE-FREE.** You’d not have to worry about getting yourself checked out. He didn’t succeed in having sex with someone else. He therefore didn’t risk picking up any bugs. See? Big distinction there. So when he fails to find women to agree to sleep with him, his wife, when she finds out (if she finds out) won’t have to worry about that along with the fact that her husband is a bum. > [@](#): > > Please go back and read what I posted: “It hurt, but …” Wait a minute, wait a minute… He was gonna do it anyway. The fact that he wanted to do it was the hurtful part, right? The having sex with another woman part was incidental. She really wasn’t part of the equation, right? She’s already “removed” from it, right? So why do you admit that it would _hurt more_ if someone you _knew_ slept with your husband? Because hey–he was going to do it anyway. So why should it matter who the other woman is? Who cares? Why shouldn’t she be able to say, “Well, since he made the decision to sleep around, since he had it in his mind to cheat, I might as well be the one he cheats with.” I mean, I don’t get what the big deal is. After all, you haven’t really wanted to discuss the “other person” who is helping him cheat–you just want to talk about him, and his motivations. So why should it matter if he sleeps with someone you know? > [@](#): > > I’m not talking about going around deliberately hurting people, but sometimes hurt is an inevitable consequence of your actions. It’s not inevitable in this case. You don’t _have_ to help someone else cheat. > [@](#): > > I suppose I could just not ever have a relationship with anybody if I knew there was somebody else interested in them, but that’s not really any way to live your life, is it? :rolleyes: But we’ve already covered this. If you restrict your dating or sexual interests amongst people who have not already signed a marital _contract_, then there are a lot less hurt feelings. Just like you might want to stay away from buying cars that already were promised away to someone else. Plenty of other cars in the car lot, and plenty of other guys who are not married. To be honest, this really isn’t so much about sex or marriage in particular. It’s about helping someone who is too _gutless_ to be honest with someone who they made certain promises to, but that they no longer want to keep. I don’t admire anyone who helps someone who is too _gutless_ to just say to their wife, “I want to separate.” or “I want to sleep with other women.” To instead play this _gutless_, dishonest, lying routine where he pretends that he wants to keep his contract with his wife, but all the while he isn’t, and he _asks other people to help him keep up the gutless lie_, well, that’s the crux of it. If, for instance, a woman doesn’t believe in marriage and thinks it’s a silly convention, and therefore she doesn’t respect another man’s marriage vows, what she needs to do is tell him to _tell_ his wife that he no longer wishes to be faithful. That he wants out of his “contract.” That way, everyone is up to speed. It’s the _pretending_ to be faithful that is the gutless part. Why someone would be willing to _help_ someone else be so _spineless and gutless_ to a completely innocent third party is beyond me, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![No\_Disguise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@No\_Disguise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Disguise)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/84 "2003-11-03T09:27:19Z")
ruadh, so there’s absolutely nothing wrong with bonking a married person? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/85 "2003-11-03T14:20:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Margeuerite \* > \*\*I: YOU NEED to examine why you sleep with married men, why you help break up homes, and why you feel the need to act so patronizingly toward anyone who dares even IMPLY that sex can be something more than just sharing body fluids. You allude to the fact that you have low self-esteem. > > Don’t you see? I have dealt with so many women like you. It’s always the same nonsense, and I always leave the exchange with the same thought. _Why do they care so much?_ Indeed, why do you care? What’s it matter to you or anyone else if I stay a virgin until I die? That I think I’m worth waiting for? That I believe there are proper ways for women and men to behave in each other’s presence? That marriage _means_ something to a lot of people? If you’re so proud to be with these married men–or at least, not ashamed–just go out and _do it._ A lot of people today probably wouldn’t give a second glance at what you’re doing anyway. I know I sure wouldn’t. If you can look at yourself in the mirror the next day, good for you. All I ask is that you allow me my perception of the world and leave me alone.You guess wrongly, my friend, and you speak wide of the mark. I won’t even dignify this with an answer. \*\* You are right “my friend” we have different opinions and I am certainly not trying to convert the world. I am not now nor have I ever been “proud” of being with a married man. I’m just not ashamed of it either. I have never tried, nor have I ever have split up a marriage. I have slept with a man knowing he was married but having zero interest in them ending their marriage. I have No interest in “breaking up homes”.To the best of my knowledge his wife never knew he had cheated. But if she did he cheated her. I didn’t. If anyone in a marriage is cheating they either don’t see the harm in sex or the marriage was already broken. I don’t "care so much’ if you are faithful or virginal. You shouldn’t care so much that I’m not. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/86 "2003-11-03T14:48:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > He was gonna do it anyway. The fact that he wanted to do it was the hurtful part, right? The having sex with another woman part was incidental. She really wasn’t part of the equation, right? She’s already “removed” from it, right? So why do you admit that it would _hurt more_ if someone you _knew_ slept with your husband? Because hey–he was going to do it anyway. So why should it matter who the other woman is? Who cares? Why shouldn’t she be able to say, “Well, since he made the decision to sleep around, since he had it in his mind to cheat, I might as well be the one he cheats with.” If I know her I am cheating too. If i don’t know her it is not my job to protect her from a man she married! > [@](#): > > To be honest, this really isn’t so much about sex or marriage in particular. It’s about helping someone who is too _gutless_ to be honest with someone who they made certain promises to, but that they no longer want to keep. > > I don’t admire anyone who helps someone who is too _gutless_ to just say to their wife, “I want to separate.” or “I want to sleep with other women.” To instead play this _gutless_, dishonest, lying routine where he pretends that he wants to keep his contract with his wife, but all the while he isn’t, and he _asks other people to help him keep up the gutless lie_, well, that’s the crux of it. > > If, for instance, a woman doesn’t believe in marriage and thinks it’s a silly convention, and therefore she doesn’t respect another man’s marriage vows, what she needs to do is tell him to _tell_ his wife that he no longer wishes to be faithful. That he wants out of his “contract.” That way, everyone is up to speed. It’s the _pretending_ to be faithful that is the gutless part. Why someone would be willing to _help_ someone else be so _spineless and gutless_ to a completely innocent third party is beyond me, obviously. Maybe he doesn’t want to leave her. Maybe he loves her but just wanted a bonk? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/87 "2003-11-03T18:16:36Z")
Yosemitebabe, I think you went thru the “Who are you to judge?” issue to fast… naturally you have the right to “judge”… but its YOUR opinion/view. When you trot on and tell the SO that their loved one is cheating them… you are not only “judging”… your interfering. When someone who is sexually liberated and non-guilty about sex like calm kiwi… what is wrong with having “fun” ? When you call someone a “slut” your more than judging… your smearing them. You are accusing them of not keeping to YOUR standards. When I see married men in unhappy marriages I think its ridiculous… but I keep it to myself… afterall they might love their children enough to keep up a bad marriage… or they might in fact still love their wives but feel the need for adventure. I don’t judge them because I don’t know what they are going thru. ``` If in a few years you get hit by lightining and fall madly in love with a woman who is not your wife ? Will you deny passion and return to your wife ? If later you regret not having slept with the other woman... will this not affect your marriage ? The man calm kiwi slept with maybe was just going thru some marriage crisis... he had the quick fling and that was that. Maybe he went back to his wife or not... maybe his affair just showed him how much he still likes his wife... or not. Calm Kiwi had more compassion on NOT judging him... ``` Or do you think it would have been better for him to lie to Calm Kiwi ? He was honest enough to not hide his marital status and avoid giving other women any illusions. Either way the man is cheating on his wife or lying to his “lover”. So why judge the women who just gave him comfort for some more comfort herself. ``` Mind you that I have never cheated my GF... but I think if your not committing a crime and being too outrageous or reckless.... its your choice. ``` Calm Kiwi… I really liked your posts… and I wish more women thought like you… we would have way less amorous problems in this world. I hate double standards men vs women’s behaviour. Sex is what we make of it… if you throw guilt into it… guilty it will feel. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/88 "2003-11-03T19:50:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > **He’s a pig, yeah. But _there’s no dead body._** But the fact that there’s no dead body doesn’t make him less of a pig! > [@](#): > > When a guy cheats but doesn’t succeed (because the woman he hit on refused to go along) he didn’t succeed. And maybe he’ll think better of it next time. Hey, if I thought there was any hope that my telling a guy “no” would prevent him from ever cheating in the future, sure I’d go along with it. The guy I mentioned in my first post to this thread, who wasn’t already a cheater before we slept together, I would never have accepted his advances if I hadn’t been too drunk to think about what I was doing (terrible excuse, I know, and as I said I do feel bad about it). But in general that hasn’t been the case with them. If I said no, they were definitely _not_ gonna think better of it next time. > [@](#): > > But you are ignoring an important detail: **YOU’D ALSO BE DISEASE-FREE.** I’m not ignoring it, I’m just saying that it’s a separate issue, just as the lack of a dead body is a separate issue. > [@](#): > > He was gonna do it anyway. The fact that he wanted to do it was the hurtful part, right? The having sex with another woman part was incidental. She really wasn’t part of the equation, right? She’s already “removed” from it, right? So why do you admit that it would _hurt more_ if someone you _knew_ slept with your husband? Because hey–he was going to do it anyway. So why should it matter who the other woman is? Who cares? Why shouldn’t she be able to say, “Well, since he made the decision to sleep around, since he had it in his mind to cheat, I might as well be the one he cheats with.” Because a friend has the same duty as an SO not to betray you. A stranger doesn’t. So you’re being betrayed by two people rather than one. Where’s the confusion here? > [@](#): > > It’s not inevitable in this case. You don’t _have_ to help someone else cheat. I said “the inevitable consequences of your actions”, not “the consequences of your inevitable actions”. > [@](#): > > If you restrict your dating or sexual interests amongst people who have not already signed a marital _contract_, then there are a lot less hurt feelings. Just like you might want to stay away from buying cars that already were promised away to someone else. Plenty of other cars in the car lot, and plenty of other guys who are not married. I don’t think the car analogy works because (a) it’s a zero sum game - we can’t both own the car, but we can both sleep with the guy - and (b) a car is property and a person isn’t. But, I think there’s something interesting here which is that you and I both have a line. I draw it at men whose wives/girlfriends/unrequited admirers are women I know, and you draw it at men who’ve made a commitment … but we both have a line. There are some people who have no line whatsoever, and some whose line excludes a whole lot more people and they would probably be appalled at some of the choices _you’ve_ made too. You shouldn’t expect people to guide themselves by _your_ moral compass all the time. > [@](#): > > I don’t admire anyone who helps someone who is too _gutless_ to just say to their wife, “I want to separate.” or “I want to sleep with other women.” I don’t admire them either. I just wanted to shag them. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/89 "2003-11-03T20:27:00Z")
> [@](#): > > calm kiwi wrote: > > Maybe he doesn’t want to leave her. Maybe he loves her but just wanted a bonk? But what would his wife feel about that? She has a right to know that he “just wants a bonk.” He may, after all, bring home a disease to her. He shouldn’t be so _gutless_ as to avoid telling her that the “terms” of their loving marriage have changed. He still loves her, but he wants to “bonk.” So maybe she (the wife) should use more protection from now on. Or, perhaps she (the wife) doesn’t _want_ to be with a man who says he loves her but wants to “bonk.” Don’t you think she’s entitled to make an informed choice? Why is it better that he keep being _gutless_ and keep lying to her? Are her feelings inconsequential? > [@](#): > > Rashak Mani wrote: > > I think you went thru the “Who are you to judge?” issue to fast… naturally you have the right to “judge”… but its YOUR opinion/view. When you trot on and tell the SO that their loved one is cheating them… you are not only “judging”… your interfering. Please copy and paste where I ever suggested that. I suggested that if a man no longer wants to keep his maritial _contract_, that he owes it to his wife to just _tell her._ I wouldn’t suggest someone else go behind his back and do it for him (though that has been known to happen–a risk a person takes when they start to cheat on their spouse). I am merely suggesting that if a man no longer wishes to remain faithful, then, unless he is a _lying, gutless weasel_, he ought to tell the person who he made certain promises to that he no longer wishes to keep those promises. Since when is advocating honesty such a radical thing? > [@](#): > > When someone who is sexually liberated and non-guilty about sex like calm kiwi… what is wrong with having “fun” ? Nothing wrong with having “fun.” Just don’t simultaniously help a _gutless_ weasel lie. Tell me–would you consider it admirable if it was anything else, other than sex and/or marriage? Would you knowingly help someone lie to someone that they’d made a contract with or made some serious promise to? Would you consider that an acceptable way to behave? Would you have no problem helping someone lie, or at least enabling them to continue to lie? Or would you wish to stay clear of the whole situation? > [@](#): > > When you call someone a “slut” your more than judging… your smearing them. You are accusing them of not keeping to YOUR standards. Golly–I’m such a _horrible_ person. I don’t advocate lying and gutlessness. > [@](#): > > When I see married men in unhappy marriages I think its ridiculous… but I keep it to myself… afterall they might love their children enough to keep up a bad marriage… or they might in fact still love their wives but feel the need for adventure. I don’t judge them because I don’t know what they are going thru. The soap opera that is their life is none of my business. But I see no reason to advocate helping them continue their soap opera lie of a life, and I don’t respect anyone who helps them continue the facade either. Now, all this is different if the wife _knows_ and is OK with it. It’s the sneaking around behind her back, keeping her in the dark–that’s the part that is worthy of no respect. > [@](#): > > ruadh wrote: > > But the fact that there’s no dead body doesn’t make him less of a pig! True, but there is still no dead body. And in the case where someone else needs to _help_ him murder, if that second person refuses to help, then there _is no dead body._ So while he’s still a pig, there is no dead body. And maybe he’ll have time to rethink the whole murder idea. > [@](#): > > But in general that hasn’t been the case with them. If I said no, they were definitely not gonna think better of it next time. But you can’t read their minds. Besides, since when it is OK to enable someone to do something wrong, just because “they’re going to do it anyway”? > [@](#): > > I’m not ignoring it, I’m just saying that it’s a separate issue, just as the lack of a dead body is a separate issue. And the fact that the “other woman” might be your friend is a separate issue too. Let’s go back and quote what you said previously about the issue of the “other woman”: > [@](#): > > ruadh wrote: > > See, the thing is that you see the sex as the “actual act”. I see the attempt to get sex as the actual act. When the person who is in a committed relationship initiates or attempts to initiate sex with another person, that’s the betrayal. If I respond positively to that initiation, I’m still a step away from it. So according to you, the woman, whoever she is, is a “step away” from it. And she didn’t make any marriage vows to the wife. > [@](#): > > Because a friend has the same duty as an SO not to betray you. A stranger doesn’t. So you’re being betrayed by two people rather than one. Where’s the confusion here? So you’re saying that it’s OK to _betray_ a stranger? I don’t get this logic. I also don’t get why the _friend_ can’t screw your husband. If you are a “step away” from the infidelity when you sleep with a married man, isn’t she as well? She didn’t make any marriage vows to _you._ Only he did. And as you brought up earlier, if he’s determined to cheat anyway, why does it matter who he sleeps _with_? She is, after all, a “step away.” The “betrayal” happened when _he_ decided not to cheat. The actual sex act is incidental. > [@](#): > > I don’t think the car analogy works because (a) it’s a zero sum game - we can’t both own the car, but we can both sleep with the guy - and (b) a car is property and a person isn’t. Well, you make a point–however, the key point I was making is that when there is a _contract_ or _promise_ made, the car (or husband) are not the same as the cars (or husbands) that don’t have any contract attached to them. While a person is not “property,” if they _contract_ to someone (their wife) to behave in a certain way (remain faithful) she thinks she’s getting a certain thing (a faithful husband). When the guy wants to break that contract, he owes it to her to let her know. Because she may not want to “have” a guy who wants to change that contract. Or, she may have no problem “sharing” him–either way, it’s a choice I think she’s entitled to make–and if only he weren’t so _gutless_, he’d just tell her and then she’d be able to make that choice. > [@](#): > > But, I think there’s something interesting here which is that you and I both have a line. I draw it at men whose wives/girlfriends/unrequited admirers are women I know, and you draw it at men who’ve made a commitment … but we both have a line. Yes, that is an interesting point. > [@](#): > > There are some people who have no line whatsoever, and some whose line excludes a whole lot more people and they would probably be appalled at some of the choices you’ve made too. You shouldn’t expect people to guide themselves by your moral compass all the time. Oh, I don’t _expect_ that people will all share my views, but I don’t feel any qualms about expressing my “no gutless” philosophy either. 😉 I certainly don’t think it’s a new idea, or a particularly radical concept. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/90 "2003-11-03T20:29:45Z")
I swear. I preview, but I always make an error (or two): It should be: "The “betrayal” happened when he decided \*\* to\*\* cheat. " ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/91 "2003-11-03T21:01:16Z")
_sigh_ Did I ever mention how many little irritations it saves to be in an open relationship? I love the boi, the boi loves me, and if he does something fun, I feel happy for him instead of throwing a hissy fit. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/92 "2003-11-03T21:07:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > > > [@](#): > > > > But the fact that there’s no dead body doesn’t make him less of a pig! > > True Q.E.D. ! > [@](#): > > But you can’t read their minds. I’m a lot better placed to judge the likelihood of them rethinking the idea than you are, though. There’s one that I would say probably wouldn’t have cheated otherwise, and I regret that incident. The others though - no. I can say that with complete confidence. If you knew these guys you’d say so too. > [@](#): > > Besides, since when it is OK to enable someone to do something wrong, just because “they’re going to do it anyway”? I believe in providing needles to drug addicts and condoms to young teenagers, too. YMMV. > [@](#): > > So you’re saying that it’s OK to _betray_ a stranger? I don’t get this logic. No, I’m saying that you _can’t_ betray a stranger. > [@](#): > > I also don’t get why the _friend_ can’t screw your husband. If you are a “step away” from the infidelity when you sleep with a married man, isn’t she as well? Yes, but she’s not a step away from her responsibility to me _as a friend_. > [@](#): > > She didn’t make any marriage vows to _you._ Only he did. Not all vows are marriage vows. Not all obligations are vows. I think that friends have an obligation not to sleep with each other’s partners (unless they all agree otherwise). If a friend of mine does, she’s breaking that obligation. > [@](#): > > And as you brought up earlier, if he’s determined to cheat anyway, why does it matter who he sleeps _with_? It matters where my feelings about _her_ are concerned. > [@](#): > > The “betrayal” happened when _he_ decided not to cheat. No, HIS betrayal happened when he made that decision. HER betrayal happened when she accepted. Double betrayal. Get it? > [@](#): > > While a person is not “property,” if they _contract_ to someone (their wife) to behave in a certain way (remain faithful) she thinks she’s getting a certain thing (a faithful husband). When the guy wants to break that contract, he owes it to her to let her know. Because she may not want to “have” a guy who wants to change that contract. Or, she may have no problem “sharing” him–either way, it’s a choice I think she’s entitled to make–and if only he weren’t so _gutless_, he’d just tell her and then she’d be able to make that choice. I’d agree with that. Honesty is the best policy. I just don’t think it’s my responsibility to enforce someone else’s honesty. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/93 "2003-11-03T21:29:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > > Q.E.D. ! But you ignore the fact that if he needs someone to _help_ him, and that person refuses, there is still no dead body. > [@](#): > > If you knew these guys you’d say so too. So you’re saying it’s OK to help someone else do something wrong, because they are going to do it anyway. > [@](#): > > I believe in providing needles to drug addicts and condoms to young teenagers, too. YMMV. Do you do this because you are worried that they will get in more trouble (i.e. get pregnant or get an STD) or because _you_ are getting something out of it yourself, and you didn’t care how their actions hurt others? In the case of the married men, _you_ are getting something out of it–you wanted to shag the guy, you shagged the guy. So what if he was a lying, gutless weasel? > [@](#): > > No, I’m saying that you _can’t_ betray a stranger. Ah, but you _can_ do wrong to a stranger–you can directly contribute to the pain of a stranger. So it’s OK to contribute to the deception and potential pain of a stranger. Is that it? > [@](#): > > Yes, but she’s not a step away from her responsibility to me _as a friend_. Why? Did she make a vow? Why should she deprive herself of some enjoyment, especially when _he_ was going to do it anyway? > [@](#): > > Not all vows are marriage vows. Not all obligations are vows. I think that friends have an obligation not to sleep with each other’s partners (unless they all agree otherwise). If a friend of mine does, she’s breaking that obligation. Maybe she doesn’t feel that way. Have you discussed it with her? Maybe she doesn’t feel any responsibility to monitor or enforce someone else’s honesty. Who are you to judge her? 😉 > [@](#): > > It matters where my feelings about _her_ are concerned. Tell me, how good of a friend does she have to be? A best best friend, or a friendly acquaintance? Or someone you’ve met several times? > [@](#): > > I’d agree with that. Honesty is the best policy. I just don’t think it’s my responsibility to enforce someone else’s honesty. Hey–refusing to sleep with a married man isn’t exactly forcing him to be honest. It’s just refusing to _enable_ him in this one instance. So, how far would you like to take this philosophy of not “enforcing” someone else’s honesty? Would you help enable someone to break a contract in some other area, as long as there was something in it for you? Would you enable someone to continue to lie to someone and continue to keep someone else in the dark about something that was pretty important to them (as long as there was something in it for you)? After all, it’s not _your_ responsibility to enforce someone else’s honesty. So would you help them, and enable them in lying? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/94 "2003-11-03T21:55:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > **But you ignore the fact that if he needs someone to _help_ him, and that person refuses, there is still no dead body.** Because the dead body or no dead body has nothing to do with the kind of person he is. Can we move on from this particular argument? We’re only finding different ways to keep saying the same things over and over again. > [@](#): > > So you’re saying it’s OK to help someone else do something wrong, because they are going to do it anyway. Yes, in some cases it is OK. > [@](#): > > Ah, but you _can_ do wrong to a stranger–you can directly contribute to the pain of a stranger. Again, this is a point we’ve already gone over. Pain happens. > [@](#): > > Maybe she doesn’t feel that way. Have you discussed it with her? Maybe she doesn’t feel any responsibility to monitor or enforce someone else’s honesty. Who are you to judge her? 😉 If she doesn’t feel that way I’m not going to stay friends with her for long. She can be friends with other people who also don’t feel that way. No problem then. > [@](#): > > Tell me, how good of a friend does she have to be? A best best friend, or a friendly acquaintance? Or someone you’ve met several times? Someone I’ve formed some sort of bond of friendship with. I couldn’t really qualify it, it’s one of those “I know it when I see it” things. I did in fact once refuse to sleep with someone whose girlfriend I only barely knew, because our acquaintance-ship, casual as it was, was very warm on the rare occasions we had met. Case by case basis I guess. > [@](#): > > So, how far would you like to take this philosophy of not “enforcing” someone else’s honesty? Would you help enable someone to break a contract in some other area, as long as there was something in it for you? I mightn’t even need there to be something in it for me. I don’t think there’s anything particularly sacred in the mere existence of a contract, it depends what the contract is. In A. Hunter’s example, even if the son had signed a contract with his father, I’d probably still sell him the ham sandwich (assuming the father wasn’t a friend who I felt an obligation not to betray). Their family problems are not my business. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/95 "2003-11-03T22:13:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > Because the dead body or no dead body has nothing to do with the kind of person he is. Can we move on from this particular argument? We’re only finding different ways to keep saying the same things over and over again. :shrug: It seems to me that you don’t want to acknowledge that when _someone helps_ him do the bad thing, the outcome may be different than when _someone else_ refuses to help him do the bad thing. The _someone else_ is an important component to the outcome. And different outcomes can mean different levels of pain to another person. > [@](#): > > Yes, in some cases it is OK. Could you be more specific? In what cases is it okay to help someone else do something wrong because they are going to do it anyway? And why should it be okay to help someone else do something _wrong_ and _hurtful_ anyway? > [@](#): > > Again, this is a point we’ve already gone over. Pain happens. So why shouldn’t your best friend sleep with your husband? Because pain happens. He’s gonna do it anyway, and after all, _pain happens._ So what’s the big deal if a friend boinks your husband? Why shouldn’t she just tell herself that “pain happens.” She can look at you and your behavior, (helping other men lie and be gutless with their wives) and she might figure that why would you mind if she did to you what you’ve done to these other men’s wives? Because pain happens, after all. > [@](#): > > Someone I’ve formed some sort of bond of friendship with. I couldn’t really qualify it, it’s one of those “I know it when I see it” things. And do you choose which husbands to sleep with based on how friendly you are with their wives? Would you sleep with a man whose wife you sorta knew, but felt no real “warmth” for? And if you would, how could you know that she didn’t feel more “warmth” for you than you did for her, and therefore would feel “betrayed” if she found out about you sleeping with her husband? > [@](#): > > I mightn’t even need there to be something in it for me. I don’t think there’s anything particularly sacred in the mere existence of a contract, it depends what the contract is. What contracts should be respected, and what contracts should be ignored? What contracts would you help enable someone else to break and lie about later? For instance, are there specific business contracts that you would help enable someone else to break (and lie about)? Are there specific personal vows or promises that you’d help someone break, and then lie about later? And why wouldn’t you suggest (rather than enable the person to continue to be so _gutless_) that the person who wants to break their contract be up front and open about their desires? After all, the end result will be the same–they will break their contract. But they’ll do it with the other party being informed and up to speed on what is going on. Why is it preferable to enable them to lie and be gutless instead? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/96 "2003-11-03T22:22:26Z")
**mattmcl** { > [@](#): > > _sigh_ Did I ever mention how many little irritations it saves to be in an open relationship? I love the boi, the boi loves me, and if he does something fun, I feel happy for him instead of throwing a hissy fit. Does it for me, too. If I come home and She With Whom I Do the Erotic is at play with the building superintendent or the neighbor, I will apologize for interrupting and close the door quietly and come back later. I’ve never understood this “I love you therefore please promise me that if you feel like boinking someone else that you find cute, you won’t” business. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/97 "2003-11-03T22:40:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > **:shrug: It seems to me that you don’t want to acknowledge that when _someone helps_ him do the bad thing, the outcome may be different than when _someone else_ refuses to help him do the bad thing.** And it seems to me that you don’t grasp the fact that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT “OUTCOMES”. I’m only addressing what it says about the person committing the act. > [@](#): > > Could you be more specific? No. Case by case basis, again. > [@](#): > > So why shouldn’t your best friend sleep with your husband? Answered several times already. > [@](#): > > And do you choose which husbands to sleep with based on how friendly you are with their wives? I don’t “choose husbands to sleep with”. Back in the day when I used to have casual sex, I chose men to sleep with and some of them turned out to be already in relationships. It’s not like I went around going “Hmm, which married man am I gonna do tonight” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Would you sleep with a man whose wife you sorta knew, but felt no real “warmth” for? It’s happened … twice, I think. Actually she wasn’t a wife in either case, just a steady girlfriend. Again, I would have to make the decision based on the actual person. > [@](#): > > And if you would, how could you know that she didn’t feel more “warmth” for you than you did for her, and therefore would feel “betrayed” if she found out about you sleeping with her husband? I’d feel bad if it did happen, yeah, but I can guarantee you there was no chance of that in either of the two cases when I knew the SO. > [@](#): > > What contracts should be respected, and what contracts should be ignored? What contracts would you help enable someone else to break and lie about later? For instance, are there specific business contracts that you would help enable someone else to break (and lie about)? Are there specific personal vows or promises that you’d help someone break, and then lie about later? Sure there would be, but I’m not going to put together a laundry list for you. > [@](#): > > And why wouldn’t you suggest (rather than enable the person to continue to be so _gutless_) that the person who wants to break their contract be up front and open about their desires? Why do you assume I haven’t suggested that? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/98 "2003-11-03T22:49:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > \*\*If I come home and She With Whom I Do the Erotic is at play with the building superintendent or the neighbor, I will apologize for interrupting and close the door quietly and come back later. \*\* I’m disappointed in you, A. I’d have sworn you’d join in 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/99 "2003-11-03T23:24:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > And it seems to me that you don’t grasp the fact that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT “OUTCOMES”. I’m only addressing what it says about the person committing the act. And we’ve agreed that the person who initiates the act (or makes attempts) is a bum. But what about the person who _helps_? What kind of person are _they?_ And are they not also “committing an act” as well? The act of helping enable a certain outcome? Oh wait. You don’t want to talk about them. But, then again, that’s kind of what this whole discussion has been about. > [@](#): > > No. Case by case basis, again. Ah, I see. “I think it’s sometimes okay to help other people do bad and hurtful things, but I can’t tell you in _which_ instances it’s okay. Just that sometimes it is.” Well, that’s about as clear as mud. > [@](#): > > Answered several times already. Not really. In fact, your reasoning on this is also as clear as mud. “Pain happens,” but it’s not okay if a friend does it. But it’s okay if you do it to a stranger. Because somehow the person who you help betray won’t be hurt as much, and after all, their husband was going to betray them anyway, so why not help him out? And also there are those unnamed and unspecified instances of where helping someone do something gutless and harmful to someone else is okay. But sometimes it’s not okay. But you won’t specify when it’s okay or not okay. Yeesh. > [@](#): > > I don’t “choose husbands to sleep with”. Back in the day when I used to have casual sex, I chose men to sleep with and some of them turned out to be already in relationships. It’s not like I went around going “Hmm, which married man am I gonna do tonight” :rolleyes: Oh, well, that makes it all better then. 😉 No, I was being somewhat facetous–I didn’t think you went cruising for married guys. On the other hand, you seem to have drawn a line in the sand regarding which married guys you will boink, and which you won’t, based on the relationship you have (or don’t have) with their wives. So it’s okay to help in the deception and hurt of certain wives, simply because _you_ don’t know them. Because “pain happens.” So as long as the person getting the pain foisted upon them is a stranger, hey–that’s just fine. > [@](#): > > Sure there would be, but I’m not going to put together a laundry list for you. I don’t expect you to answer, but I do find it telling that you refuse to specify what contracts (and vows) are okay to enable someone else to break, and also in which instances it’s okay to help someone else do something bad and harmful to someone else. I fail to see why it would be so difficult to come up with a few examples. > [@](#): > > Why do you assume I haven’t suggested that? And when he said, “No, I’d rather remain a lying gutless weasel, and I’d still like you to help me remain this way.” you responded with, “Okay then. No problem. Since you’re determined to do it anyway, I might as well help you.” Is that how it went? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![No\_Disguise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@No\_Disguise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Disguise)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621/100 "2003-11-03T23:36:11Z")
Well, we can see one of the answers to the OP in raudh’s posts. Women don’t like sluts because they’ll bonk their husbands and think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-sluts-so-hated-and-reviled-by-other-women/210621.md?page=6)