# WHY are so many Americans in prison/jail/on parole? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694 "2012-07-19T07:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/41 "2012-07-20T07:49:24Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Something else that I can’t understand is how the incarcerated population doesn’t seem to translate to street crime, America certainly doesn’t seem like a place where petty crime is non-existant. To some degree, it does translate to street crime. Petty street crime (pickpocketing and purse snatching, for instance) is somewhat more common in major European cities which have much less severe penalties for such things. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/42 "2012-07-20T10:23:13Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > We refuse to believe the obvious facts about harsher sentences not reducing recidivism. And I insist on believing that harsher sentences keep the miscreants locked away where they can’t commit crimes against me. My wife and I practice, and have taught our kids a concept that apparently eludes a portion of the populace. We call it “Not Breaking the Law”. Amazingly, this simple idea seems to keep you outside the prison walls. I have zero sympathy for criminals, and make it crystal clear to my elected representatives that I want the bastards locked up. The longer the better. I would assume a large contingent like myself is part of the answer to the OPs question. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/43 "2012-07-20T10:53:50Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > And I insist on believing that harsher sentences keep the miscreants locked away where they can’t commit crimes against me. Well, then, like so many people, you insist on believing something that isn’t true. There are a lot of ways that overly harsh penalties can and do backfire, but I don’t guess you really care about that. > [@](#): > > My wife and I practice, and have taught our kids a concept that apparently eludes a portion of the populace. We call it “Not Breaking the Law”. Amazingly, this simple idea seems to keep you outside the prison walls. > > I have zero sympathy for criminals, and make it crystal clear to my elected representatives that I want the bastards locked up. The longer the better. > > I would assume a large contingent like myself is part of the answer to the OPs question. The question was about why the US in particular has such a high rate of incarceration, not whether there is a way to avoid getting oneself incarcerated, or whether we should feel sorry for criminals. ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/44 "2012-07-20T12:28:58Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And for that matter, I suspect a good fraction of people in jail for drug offenses are not the types that would or will ONLY commit “harmless” drug crimes. Just so we have some actual statistics about the composition of the prison population. From a paper [here](http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/inc_federalprisonpop.pdf): Composition of the Federal Prison Population – Mostly Non-Violent • More than half (55%) of federal prisoners are serving time for a drug offense, and 13% for a violent offense. • Nearly three-fourths (72.1%) of the population are non-violent offenders with no history of violence. • One-third (34.4%) are first-time, non-violent offenders. • More than half (55.7%) of persons sentenced for a drug offense in 2002 fell into the lowest criminal history category (Category 1) of the sentencing guidelines, and in 87% of cases no weapon was involved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/45 "2012-07-20T15:35:09Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > My wife and I practice, and have taught our kids a concept that apparently eludes a portion of the populace. We call it “Not Breaking the Law”. Amazingly, this simple idea seems to keep you outside the prison walls. In your view, what should happen to people accused of a crime, but cannot make bail? I am curious, because a friend-of-a-friend of mine has been in jail for about 6 months now because of an accusation. I don’t know if he’s guilty or not, but his girlfriend (my friend) says he’s in a county jail with convicted criminals and has been to the infirmary twice (that he’s told her about) for injuries sustained from “falling out of his bunk”. I understand that one anecdote does not make for data, but in my friend’s story merely \*“Not Breaking the Law” \*has not protected her boyfriend from going to jail. ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/46 "2012-07-20T16:10:56Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > My wife and I practice, and have taught our kids a concept that apparently eludes a portion of the populace. We call it “Not Breaking the Law”. Amazingly, this simple idea seems to keep you outside the prison walls. > … > I would assume a large contingent like myself is part of the answer to the OPs question. So, the incarceration rate is so high because people like you want it that way. And also because all of those incarcerated weren’t raised properly by their parents. Let’s assume that’s true. What makes America unique in those regards? We’re comparing the incarceration rate to that of other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/47 "2012-07-20T16:11:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I think a big difference is that the US has an extremely adversarial system (he who has the best lawyer wins), perhaps countries with inquisitorial systems (the important point is to find out what happened and to avoid repetition) are less likely to go for the kill. In the US, a DA or judge with a high convinction record is more likely to get reelected: in most other countries, they’re not elected, their job does not require them to convict as many people as possible. The whole American system is geared towards imprisoning as many people as possible; it comes from trying to put control of the law in the hands of “the people” (by making judges and prosecutors elected) but, both by the adversarial nature of the legal system and by the adversarial nature of elections, it ends up being “he who jails most wins”. I don’t completely disagree, but one Nitpick: An extremely adversarial system does\* not\* mean “he who has the best lawyer wins.” In criminal cases that go to trial, the defendant often has “the best lawyer.” Even the best lawyer cannot prevail (usually) in the face of overwhelming evidence. When I practiced criminal law I won my share of trials, but certainly lost a whole bunch too. If I was the “best lawyer” in the cases I won, than I was probably also the “best lawyer” in the cases I lost. The reassuring truth, however, is that juries usually get it right. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/48 "2012-07-20T16:34:46Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > In your view, what should happen to people accused of a crime, but cannot make bail? > … in my friend’s story merely \*“Not Breaking the Law” \*has not protected her boyfriend from going to jail. I had a friend who might have had a good defense against aggravated assault but couldn’t afford a lawyer. He couldn’t even afford bail so was faced with the choice of pleading not guilty _and staying in jail_ or pleading guilty to a lesser charge _and being released_. He pled guilty. I don’t think that was an isolated anecdote. > [@billfish678](#): > > One the flip side there are plenty of Americans willing to be stupid enough to BE criminals. > … > Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time? Was this directed at OP? If so, is your claim that Americans are more likely to be stupid? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/49 "2012-07-20T16:35:15Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > These System Of A Down lyrics from the song “Prison Song” are appropriate here: > > [lyrics removed] Entire lyric postings are against the rules, FoieGrasIsEvil, so I’ve edited your post to take them out. [TOS](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/faq.php?faq=vb3_board_faq#faq_sdmb_rules) says: > [@](#): > > You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by the operator of the SDMB, except as permitted by the “fair use” provisions of the U.S. copyright laws (in general this means brief excerpts only). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/50 "2012-07-20T16:37:53Z")
> [@dataguy](#): > > Just so we have some actual statistics about the composition of the prison population. From a paper [here](http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/inc_federalprisonpop.pdf): > > Composition of the Federal Prison Population – Mostly Non-Violent > • More than half (55%) of federal prisoners are serving time for a drug offense, and 13% for a > violent offense. > • Nearly three-fourths (72.1%) of the population are non-violent offenders with no history of > violence. > • One-third (34.4%) are first-time, non-violent offenders. > • More than half (55.7%) of persons sentenced for a drug offense in 2002 fell into the lowest > criminal history category (Category 1) of the sentencing guidelines, and in 87% of cases no > weapon was involved. If this is just for federal prison it does not reflect the nation as a whole. 90% of inmates are state or local prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/51 "2012-07-20T16:47:53Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > **grude** ’s phrasing could have been improved and I had to read his paragraph twice, but I think you’ve interpreted it backwards. He means, I think, that America does _not_ have a particularly low rate of petty crime, despite the high incarceration. > > Sorry. I have no stats on America’s relative crime rates, nor certainly would they would be with less incarceration. 🆒 When it comes to property crimes America has a slightly lower crime rate than Europe. However before the prison population started to rise America had a much higher crime rate. In 1970 American had 3.5 times the property crime rate that Europe had. Now Armerica has a property crime rate that is about 15% less than it had in 1970 and now Europe has a property crime rate about 350% higher than it had in 1970. Cite [www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/9/979/papers/Buonnano\_etal.pdf](http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/9/979/papers/Buonnano_etal.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/52 "2012-07-20T16:56:09Z")
Mandatory sentencing is a big reason the incarceration rates are so high. In the 1960s there was a trend in the judiciary to make it harder to arrest and incarcerate criminals. According to Bill James’s book there were jurisdiction where someone sentenced to life in prison could routinely get out in 7 years. At the same time the crime rate tripled in about ten years. As a response politicians started running as law and order candidates. They past harsher laws, but many judges used their discretion to mitigate that. So politicians started passing mandatory sentencing laws. They have kept judges from letting hardened criminals off easy but they have also swept less dangerous criminals along with them. Crime rates have been falling for 20 years so as crime has less salience in people’s lives more flexible laws will probably have a chance of passing, especially in regards to drug offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/53 "2012-07-20T17:31:28Z")
[Youtube video of a sermon](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWPk3r9b_QUM&ei=iJUJUMmrM4qE0QGD-4jrAw&usg=AFQjCNG0eO4bNiQGoQxQp5G1mxuJoC5W_Q) delivered on July 15 by Angela Herrera of Albuquerque’s First U.U. Church. It speaks directly to the topic of this thread. She is an engaging speaker, and it is worth a watch even if you don’t care much about the topic. Her thesis is that once a minority it convicted of any felony (such as drug possession) it becomes completely legal to discriminate against them in employment matters, effectively locking them out of the legal economy, and they simultaneously become disqualified for many safety net programs…leaving them no alternative to illegal activity to house and feed themselves and their families. ---
**Author:** ![dataguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eada6e/32.png) [@dataguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dataguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/54 "2012-07-20T17:39:10Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If this is just for federal prison it does not reflect the nation as a whole. 90% of inmates are state or local prisoners. Maybe you could dig up some State/Local statistics for us. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/55 "2012-07-20T18:50:25Z")
Mandatory minimums were an extreme response to judges handing out light sentences or penal systems which didn’t “lock” people up for the time they were given. WV never did those reforms because crime isn’t that big of an issue here, but it comes up sometimes. In WV, you get a day for day credit for good behavior and are eligible for parole after serving half of your sentence. So, a person convicted of second degree murder is punished by 10 to 40 years in prison. The victim’s family feels justice. But, after serving just five years the convict is eligible for parole. And with day to day good time credit, he can be released on parole in 2 1/2 years. For murder!!! That’s what the whole country had before mandatory minimums and people in high crime areas were outraged. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/56 "2012-07-21T21:51:55Z")
Well, “eligible for parole” doesn’t mean he’ll get out. I assume the Parole Board knows that he’s in “For Murder!!!” If someone is paroled after 2.5 years for murder!!!, I would think there was a compelling reason to do so. Most parole boards I’ve seen are not too quick to let people out for violent crimes. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/57 "2012-07-21T23:24:56Z")
China recently had a crackdown on meth labs, all 600 suspects resisted arrest and were killed. This means they did not go to jail! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/58 "2012-07-22T00:50:03Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Well, “eligible for parole” doesn’t mean he’ll get out. I assume the Parole Board knows that he’s in “For Murder!!!” If someone is paroled after 2.5 years for murder!!!, I would think there was a compelling reason to do so. Most parole boards I’ve seen are not too quick to let people out for violent crimes. Correct. But, some of the cases I’ve been working on makes me question the sanity of the WV Parole Board. We had a guy doing 2 to 10 for a non-violent felony. Eligible for parole in May, 2012, after 6 months (2 years/2 /2). His crimes were minor enough, but his prison record looked like a horror movie. He was threatening suicide daily, throwing feces on the corrections officers, placed in 4 point restraints a few times a month; just an all around crazy bastard. In his 6 months, he went from general population to the most restrictive segregation unit in the state. He made parole on his first date while incarcerated behind double steel doors. But, as I said, crime is so infrequent in WV that you don’t have the populace up in arms over stronger penalties like what happened in the rest of the country in the mid to late 80s. For example, WV has no state death penalty. Polls show that 85% of state residents favor the death penalty, but there’s no trigger to make politicians enact it because crime is so rare. I was just trying to illustrate that stuff like this was happening in NY, CA, and FL in the 1980s to early 90s and people DEMANDED harsher punishments. Now they are living with the consequences. Why can’t there be a responsible, happy medium? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/59 "2012-07-22T01:32:41Z")
> [@dataguy](#): > > Maybe you could dig up some State/Local statistics for us. You are the dataguy, but since you asked according to DOJ in 2010, 53% of state inmates were imprisoned for violent offenses, 19% for property crimes, 18% for drug offenses, and 9% for public order offenses. Cite [http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p10.pdf](http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p10.pdf) This means of the total prison population around 23% is in prison for drug offenses. If every one of those people were released the US incarceration rate would go from 730 per 100,000 people to 532. This would move the US from #1 in the world to number 4. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694/60 "2012-07-22T01:38:21Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > [Youtube video of a sermon](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWPk3r9b_QUM&ei=iJUJUMmrM4qE0QGD-4jrAw&usg=AFQjCNG0eO4bNiQGoQxQp5G1mxuJoC5W_Q) delivered on July 15 by Angela Herrera of Albuquerque’s First U.U. Church. It speaks directly to the topic of this thread. She is an engaging speaker, and it is worth a watch even if you don’t care much about the topic. Excellent speech. One interesting statistic she mentioned is that there are more blacks in prisons now than were slaves just before the Civil War, and most are in prison from drug charges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-in-prison-jail-on-parole/628694.md?page=4)