# Why are so many Americans offended by foreigners commenting on American politics? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680 "2004-05-23T19:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/41 "2004-05-24T14:59:08Z")
The thing is… …I’ve never heard an American say that Americans should be respectful or restrained in talking about France or Germany or in deprecating Canada’s “socialist” health care system, etc. Americans pop off constantly about other countries and they do it with much less actual knowledge of what they’re talking about. I think it’s hypocritical and lame for them to then turn around and cry about criticism from non-Americans. I mean really, should Americans not be allowed to say anything about Cuba? And the point has been made already but US policy affects the entire world, not just us Americans. US Presidential elections have a much greater impact outside our borders than any other national election of any other country. That entitles the whole world to at least a voice if not a vote. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/42 "2004-05-24T15:12:54Z")
Originally posted by **iamme99** > [@](#): > > \*It sometimes feels like some of these people are trying to influence how people vote here while masquerading as a citizen of the country (since not everyone knows where a person is from here). I mean, if you don’t have any real skin in the game, then say your piece once, twice or thrice and get on with your business. Don’t beat a dead horse or people will start to question your motives. \* That is so true. I often wondered about some posters. Either they’re _not_ Americans, or they’re pathetic, self-hate filled masochists. **Sisyphus’ Stone** Watch the laughable, lamentable, albeit predictable answer from a foreigner: That was a very hateful and ignorant post. hehehehe, **xtisme** Good point. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/43 "2004-05-24T15:15:40Z")
> [@DtC](#): > > …I’ve never heard an American say that Americans should be respectful or restrained in talking about France or Germany or in deprecating Canada’s “socialist” health care system, etc. Americans pop off constantly about other countries and they do it with much less actual knowledge of what they’re talking about. I think it’s hypocritical and lame for them to then turn around and cry about criticism from non-Americans. I mean really, should Americans not be allowed to say anything about Cuba? Oh, come on DtC. You NEVER heard ANY American’s say they should be restrained in talking about other countries? And you’ve been on this board how long exactly? Because I’ve certainly heard plenty of American’s on this board go off when some nutball starts bashing on other countries. As to your ‘less actual knowledge’, you might have a bit of a point, but I think you are exaggerating it. Again though, I think most people have a problem with FLAMES directed at the US, not genuine (and well informed) criticism. And what people wouldn’t get their back up over stuff like that?? > [@DtC](#): > > And the point has been made already but US policy affects the entire world, not just us Americans. US Presidential elections have a much greater impact outside our borders than any other national election of any other country. That entitles the whole world to at least a voice if not a vote. Well, it certainly doesn’t entitle them to a vote, unless they want to start helping out with our taxes and let us vote in their local elections as well. 🙂 As to a voice, any can have an opinion. I seriously doubt that most American’s have a problem with foriegners expressing an opinion about the US. Its when foriegners (or even locals) start ranting and raving about the US with half baked ideas of how the US works, or what the US has or hasn’t done…THATS whats pretty annoying. Even that though, I think people have the ‘right’ to express their tin foil dreams about American, if thats what they want. Hell, I love Alderbarans posts!! I derive a hell of a lot of amusement by reading through them, especially when he really gets going. I’ve never once said I think he should butt out and mind his own business because he was a foriegner. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/44 "2004-05-24T15:16:15Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The thing is… > > …I’ve never heard an American say that Americans should be respectful or restrained in talking about France or Germany or in deprecating Canada’s “socialist” health care system, etc. Americans pop off constantly about other countries and they do it with much less actual knowledge of what they’re talking about. I think it’s hypocritical and lame for them to then turn around and cry about criticism from non-Americans. I mean really, should Americans not be allowed to say anything about Cuba? > > And the point has been made already but US policy affects the entire world, not just us Americans. US Presidential elections have a much greater impact outside our borders than any other national election of any other country. That entitles the whole world to at least a voice if not a vote. So? You’re criticising the behavior of Americans. No matter how obnoxious and hypocritical some Americans might be that doesn’t justify rude behavior from non-Americans towards America or Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/45 "2004-05-24T15:25:08Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I once impressed a couple of Canadians in a youth hostel by _almost_ knowing how many provinces Canada has. I said twelve, and they were willing to give me a pass for forgetting number thirteen since Nunavut had only become a seperate province a couple of years before. They said they’d never met an American who’d even come close to the correct answer. Just to nitpick - the answer is **10**. Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Nunavut are territories, not provinces. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/46 "2004-05-24T15:29:11Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Alebaran, you wouldn’t be calling anyone _here_ an idiot, right? Right? [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/47 "2004-05-24T15:39:52Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > Furthermore, if you are going to try and dive deep into politics and economics of another country, then you best make sure that you have ALL your facts straight. If we could all do that on our own, we wouldn’t need places like the Straight Dope. People are going to have uninformed opinions. It’s a fact of life. They’re only going to have limited knowledge of a subject when they’re just learning about something. To say that they shouldn’t express their opnions simply because they don’t have all the facts is, for lack of a better term, ignorant. People get all the facts not only through their own study but also through expressing their opinions to others and involving themselves in the arguments that ensue. You think a foreigner’s opinion on US politics is ill-informed? Don’t tell him or her to shut up because s/he doesn’t have all the facts, present your argument as to how and why their opinion lacks a basis of factual knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/48 "2004-05-24T16:00:00Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > [Moderator Hat ON] > > Alebaran, you wouldn’t be calling anyone _here_ an idiot, right? Right? > > [Moderator Hat OFF] Do I ??? I say “these idiots” = the ones I describe as reacting on message boards as I describe they react on message boards. In my view that is writing in general mode, no? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/49 "2004-05-24T16:00:35Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > It sure would be nice if there were some symbol or link tied to your username here that would indicate your country of citizenship. Why, so other posters can more easily throw _ad hominem_ remarks at them? If someone is posting crap, you should be able to easily refute that crap with facts. If you can’t, then it’s your own beliefs that need to be questioned. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/50 "2004-05-24T16:11:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sorry Alderbaran ole buddy…‘My Post Is My Cite’. 🙂 XT, since your post is not your cite because it describes situations that do not exist= things I did not write, I would call that : Misleading the audience by falsely attributing quotes to an other member and falsely claim to have such quotes to back up your statements. > [@](#): > > Besides, if you don’t realize that my characterization of your posting history on this board is accurate, you are probably the ONLY one on this board who doesn’t know it. Not like myriad posters haven’t tried to tell you… All you and others “try to tell me” is that they have no clue about how to disfigure my Aldebaran’s new English Dictionary Style 🙂 I know I should start working on a translating dictionary… But time fails (and Dyslex does not want to cooperate at all). But I should think everyone would know by now that I am completely harmless and completely innocent. It shines through cyberspace. It is just that you don’t _see_ me… One look at my charming gentle person would be enough to join the immense circle of my admirers. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/51 "2004-05-24T16:16:18Z")
Martin Hy: “the only pet peeve I have is I’d like any foreigner that is going to comment very much on our politics at least be familiar with how the political system works over here.” I think the point here is that your political system doesnt work - if it worked correctly then your man Busheee wouldnt be the most powerfull, man on the planet now. We’re just making sure that you know… its for your own good. Seriously though, i reckon LilShieste’s was the most likely reason. The rest of the thread (apart from some noteable exceptions) has gone according to form. Sin ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/52 "2004-05-24T16:18:54Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Actually, a good many of the Americans who react to foreigners offering critical opinions of our politics with “Who asked you? Butt out!” are inclined to react to _Americans_ offering critical opinions of our politics with “If you don’t like it, why don’t you leave?” Arrogancy at it’s highest level. Americans may not like to think of the implications if America has repeatedly been the only country to obstruct many UN resolutions condemning its behavior or the behavior of its ally Israel. Or if nearly the entire world has condemned the execution of juveniles, but we still allow the practice what does that say about us? Up until last year, we had valid laws on our books to _put people in prison_ for what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home. What other country does that? Iran? Libya? What does that say about us as a nation? It’s not something we want to consider. So we wrap ourselves up in our flag and shout “USA NUMBER ONE!” and scream at people from other countries to shut the hell up and any uppity americans who sympathize with foreign attitudes can just get out! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/53 "2004-05-24T16:30:00Z")
> [@Aldebaran](#): > > XT, since your post is not your cite because it describes situations that do not exist= things I did not write, I would call that : > Misleading the audience by falsely attributing quotes to an other member and falsely claim to have such quotes to back up your statements. Alde…do you REALLY want me to dig through your previous posts to pick out the gems of anti-american ranting? Really? Because I don’t think it serves any purpose. You know you’ve ranted about the US before…I know it. Everyone knows it. As to the ‘my post is my cite’, that was supposed to be ironic…as it was YOU that coined that phrase. Its not often that a single one liner like that sticks in my mind from this message board…you should be proud. 🙂 > [@Aldebaran](#): > > All you and others “try to tell me” is that they have no clue about how to disfigure my Aldebaran’s new English Dictionary Style I know I should start working on a translating dictionary… But time fails (and Dyslex does not want to cooperate at all). Thats not true at all. Since you’ve started posting, a lot of fellow posters (including myself) have tried to tell you to tone down your anti-American retoric (and stop using the semi-derrogatory “US’ers” term you liked to throw about). Because when you DO tone it down, you actually have some very interesting things to say. There have been posts you’ve made where I’m nodding my head in total agreement and enjoying your views on things as you express them in a calm and rational way. Unfortunately, most of your other posts are simply anti-US screeds where, even if there ARE good points thrown in, are mostly ignored because they are so off the wall and over the top. BTW, I have dyslexia too, so I know how it is. Nor is my English up to snuff as far as this board goes. I have every sympathy with you on this score. > [@Aldebaran](#): > > But I should think everyone would know by now that I am completely harmless and completely innocent. It shines through cyberspace. > It is just that you don’t see me… One look at my charming gentle person would be enough to join the immense circle of my admirers. Hey, I think you are a great guy and an amusing fellow. However, while you might be harmless, I think you are far from innocent. 🙂 > [@sinical brit](#): > > I think the point here is that your political system doesnt work - if it worked correctly then your man Busheee wouldnt be the most powerfull, man on the planet now. 😃 Only in Bush’s wet dreams at night… -XT ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/54 "2004-05-24T16:36:18Z")
As a direct reply to the OP: Could it be that, with the creeping realisation that Iraq is a complete debacle, that a certain section of America is starting to have doubts about its leadership to get things right, and so are getting defensive? ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/55 "2004-05-24T16:38:50Z")
A Canadian here. Sometimes it’s hard to keep out of American debates because we in the Rest of the World get so much of your newsmedia, on TV and on the Internet, that we’re deluged in your internal politics. It comes down to either living like a hermit, or trying to have no opinion on something you hear constantly about. I do my best to keep out of your purely internal debates. I have a really hard time doing that on certain subjects I feel close to – gay rights, especially, because that’s a topic that’s important to me, and because I’ve known so many gay men from the US. Also, I reserve the right to comment on any subject that doesn’t stop at your borders (foreign policy and the environment, especially), that the rest of the world has a stake in. That said, I don’t think it’s healthy to get to involved in the purely domestic stuff of another country. you start to forget where you are, that way, and that’s never healthy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/56 "2004-05-24T17:06:11Z")
It goes a little deeper than that. \*Any \* post that reflects lack of knowledge, or lack of thoughtfulness, or lack of respect towards the people whose country is being discussed, will get a hostile reaction, \*regardless \* of who posted it. There is not a damn thing wrong with that, either. If said poster consistently refuses to integrate the factual knowledge or examination of flawed reasoning he has just been provided with into his views and continues to spew the same ignorance as before, he’ll get the reaction he deserves, regardless of where he’s from. That is entirely proper, too. Nationality has no fundamental bearing on the quality of a post or the contributions of a poster. I mentioned respect. There are differing attitudes between and within countries about government and its rights and responsibilities, of course. In each democracy, the arrangement has been established by the conscious decisions of the people, and reflect their own deepest convictions and the efforts of many, many people to put them into place. A post that shows no consideration of that, no understanding or appreciation of the process and effort that created it, but is simply criticism rather than probing is a post that needs not be taken seriously by those it targets. A functioning democracy requires the acceptance of a great deal of responsibility and the full commitment of its people - someone who shows no understanding of the requirements, or acceptance of the responsibilities of citizenship in his own country, would get a very hostile reception anywhere by those who do. It more specifically is not necessary to take seriously the posts of someone who is always ready to encourage the people of another country to spend their own money and their own lives in furtherance of a goal which he makes no effort to have his own country join. “Let’s you and him fight” posts get all the consideration they deserve. It is that which gets **Sam** the reaction he gets, not the nationality he shares with so many others who do not get “butt out” replies. Ever wonder why that is, Sam? Is it because “we just hate furriners”, or “we just hate Bush”? That may be comforting, but it is not true, and your failure to even consider that is at the heart of your problems here. You get the kinds of responses here that you do not because of your nationality but because of your decembrist posting “style” compounded with the lack of tempering of your posts that an understanding and acceptance of the responsibilities of citizenship in your own country would entail. Even under direct questioning, all you’ll ever tell us about your own thoughts about Canadian politics and politicians is, roughly, “they all suck”. That view is simply sad, and furthermore it disqualifies anyone who holds it from getting credit for deeper understanding of someone else’s democracy. All the Americans who show the same level of regard for democracy and the same willingness to consider differing views that you do get that same derisive reaction too, didja ever notice? They do and they should. Differing but thoughtful international perspectives are certainly welcome here, _and I’ve never seen otherwise._ **stisme** , if you can show some examples, please do so. We \*want \* to know what has been done and what has been thought about by others. We \*want \* to know what we may have been overlooking. We \*want \* to learn. We know we can learn the most from those who have differing views, if they have been arrived at thoughtfully and honestly. Most of the time, we succeed at it, too. But we learn nothing in echo chambers, or from ideologues of any stripe or any origin, or from partisan bashers of any stripe or any origin. That stuff gets only contempt, as it should. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/57 "2004-05-24T17:31:07Z")
Can I just offer **ElvisL1ves** ’ message as an example of what I was talking about? See, in ElvisL1ve’s world, foreigners are allowed to contribute as long as they are ‘thoughtful’ (as defined by him). If they aren’t, it’s okay to call into question their right to post, and even to question their own citizenship. Apparently, to be considered a good poster here I have to not only show ‘respect’ to Elvis, I have to provide evidence that I’m a good Canadian, too. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/58 "2004-05-24T18:26:22Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > See, in ElvisL1ve’s world, foreigners are allowed to contribute as long as they are ‘thoughtful’ (as defined by him). If they aren’t, it’s okay to call into question their right to post, and even to question their own citizenship Wrong. **Elvis** called into question the right to expect a thoughtful, reasoned response to questioning that was not of the same - a fairly black and white distinction. **E** is right and the point was argued thoughtfully and reasonably. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/59 "2004-05-24T19:13:39Z")
> [@marky33](#): > > Wrong. **Elvis** called into question the right to expect a thoughtful, reasoned response to questioning that was not of the same - a fairly black and white distinction. > **E** is right and the point was argued thoughtfully and reasonably. No, **Elvis** and certain other posters have their panties in a bunch because **Sam** is A) Of the Right wing and B) From Canada. Their brains smoke and sputter trying to figure that one out. You’ll notice that its only the leftist crowd here that doesn’t want foreigners meddling in certain debates; You won’t find the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680/60 "2004-05-24T19:25:02Z")
Thanks, **marky33**. I’ll reiterate that **Sam** would get exactly the same sort of responses he does here regarding US politics _even if he were an American_, just like \*\*december \*\* did and like a few other current American posters do. In case I wasn’t clear, I have \*never \* seen the situation described in the OP on this board, _ever_. I open only a minority of the threads here, true, so maybe I’ve missed some, but every rebuttal I’ve come across, or written, has been or would be equally valid and appropriate regardless of the nationalities involved. If there are any examples one can point to of a reply that could fairly be summarized as “Butt out, you’re Elbonian” rather than “Butt out, you don’t know or want to know the facts” and/or “Butt out if you don’t want to listen”, let’s have 'em. But I most certainly have seen many, many such positively-intended replies dismissed by their subject as targeting their nationality or even their person rather than their debating methods or seriousness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-americans-offended-by-foreigners-commenting-on-american-politics/246680.md?page=4)