# Why are so many Christians vehemently opposed to Science? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344 "2009-02-18T00:51:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/41 "2009-02-18T09:24:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Lysenko was a Communist not a rationalist. And his ideas were a disaster because he did what believers tend to do and rejected science in favor of dogma. As for Gregor Mendel, he told the truth because he didn’t realize he was undercutting his faith. If he had known, he’d quite possibly have lied or burned his results. How would you go about scientifically proving this hypothesis about Gregor Mendel? ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/42 "2009-02-18T11:06:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How would you go about scientifically proving this hypothesis about Gregor Mendel? Surely you know **Der Trihs’** MO by now. If an atheist does wrong, it’s in spite of their atheism; whereas if a theist does right, it’s in spite of their theism. It’s axiomatic, so no inquiry is required to establish the truth of it. His post about Lysenko and Mendel is a beautiful example of \*\*DT \*\*in action. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/43 "2009-02-18T11:29:32Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Surely you know **Der Trihs’** MO by now. If an atheist does wrong, it’s in spite of their atheism; whereas if a theist does right, it’s in spite of their theism. It’s axiomatic, so no inquiry is required to establish the truth of it. His post about Lysenko and Mendel is a beautiful example of \*\*DT \*\*in action. Oh, please. Why would Lysenko’s atheism be the reason for his behavior ? It was Communism, not atheism that was his driving force, and they are not at all the same. And atheism can’t motivate anyone to do anything; it’s value neutral. It’s just a single assertion, that there are no gods. It doesn’t even say if that’s good or bad. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/44 "2009-02-18T11:38:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. Why would Lysenko’s atheism be the reason for his behavior ? It was Communism, not atheism that was his driving force, and they are not at all the same. > > And atheism can’t motivate anyone to do anything; it’s value neutral. It’s just a single assertion, that there are no gods. It doesn’t even say if that’s good or bad. I notice you only addressed half of my claim. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/45 "2009-02-18T12:20:49Z")
> [@Calculon](#): > > This means though that science, as an institution, is becoming like the pre-reformation Catholic church. While in principle people can repeat any experiment they like, practically most can’t. Doing science today requires:- > > 1. Access to (since nearly all are copyrighted and not freely available) and ability to comprehend science journals. > 2. Access to specialised equipment. > 3. Lots of money and free time to perform experiments, analyse results, ect. > None of these resources the average person on the street has. One could draw an analogy with the Catholic church maintaining all of it’s teaching in Latin, which apart from scholars and nobility was a dead language. It keeps the power associated with it in the hands of the select few and makes the masses dependant upon them for knowledge I’m sorry, but this analogy borders on malicious misrepresentation. Nobody’s withholding or obscuring scientific results to exclude the public from scientific knowledge; instead, many eminent scientists go through great pains in order to try and make their fields more accessible to the public by writing popular science books, giving public lectures, appearing on TV documentaries etc. If you want to educate yourself about science, the only thing stopping you from doing so is yourself (or probably your social situation, but that can hardly be blamed on science). No scientist will endeavour to keep any scientific knowledge from those curious about it; in fact, most will enthusiastically support any sort of such inquiry. As for the larger point of this thread, religiously motivated attacks on science don’t tend to bother me much – what they show is that at least some proponents of religion feel threatened by scientific advancements, feel the gaps that are left to hide their various gods in are narrowing, and even in some instances closing. However, the true believer should not be fazed by such developments – their god ought to stand gloriously above those mortal enterprises of science and critical thinking, untouched and untouchable by the discovery of the next missing link. That this is not the most widespread attitude says something about the nature of religious belief, I think. What worries me far more is the anti-science state of the general populace that doesn’t seem to derive itself from contrary belief as much as the idea that science takes away some sort of ephemeral quality that is thought to inhabit the ‘mysterious’, the ‘unknown’. There is a strange romanticizing of those concepts and the idea that ‘science doesn’t explain everything’, to the point that the proponents of rational explanation are being looked down upon and pitied as ‘lacking’ some essential of human experience, as living a somewhat ‘poorer’ life for being dedicated to meeting the wonders of this world with reason and a willingness to understand, instead of just passively consuming them. There’s a strange notion that measuring things somehow makes them less, that explaining their workings takes away their wonder, that in some way, mystery is a desirable quality for the world to have – in other words, that it is sometimes preferable to remain ignorant, and to even tout this ignorance as a virtue! I think this failure, not merely to understand, but to _want_ to understand, is one of the most destructive traits of humanity, and is truly the ‘root of all evil’ (to reattribute a Dawkinsism) that religion merely sometimes forms a ready conduit of. ---
**Author:** ![Calculon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5a626/32.png) [@Calculon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calculon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/46 "2009-02-18T12:25:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. Why would Lysenko’s atheism be the reason for his behavior ? It was Communism, not atheism that was his driving force, and they are not at all the same. > > And atheism can’t motivate anyone to do anything; it’s value neutral. It’s just a single assertion, that there are no gods. It doesn’t even say if that’s good or bad. So if atheism can’t motivate anyone to do anything, athiests do good is spite of their atheism. Are you really saying that do find motivatins to do good, one must look outside of atheism? Calculon. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/47 "2009-02-18T12:40:31Z")
> [@Calculon](#): > > So if atheism can’t motivate anyone to do anything, athiests do good is spite of their atheism. Are you really saying that do find motivatins to do good, one must look outside of atheism? “In spite of” would tend to suggest that the good is being done in opposition to that which atheism would support. I’d say as far as motivations go, atheism really doesn’t seem to crop up particularly much. Someone could do good or bad specifically because of their atheism, but I can’t see it being at all common, for either side. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/48 "2009-02-18T13:22:18Z")
“Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate.” Although these words were spoken by a muppet, they are very true. Christianity is built on fear. Fear of death, of insignificance, of non-existence. Some Christians are so terrified of being wrong that they strike out in anger and hate at anyone who suggests that they might be. It’s not rational. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/49 "2009-02-18T13:22:21Z")
I think a _little_ of the blame for the notion, among some religious people, that Science is The Enemy, has to go to proponents of science who (like Richard Dawkins) pit science against religion, who claim that a scientific worldview excludes God and that modern scientific theories, like evolution, render fundamental religious beliefs, like the existence of God, impossible, implausible, and/or irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/50 "2009-02-18T13:33:31Z")
I have to echo those saying this being an Alabama/US (delete as appropriate) thing. I was raised a Catholic, lived in two different European countries and have travelled extensively within Europe but have yet to come across anything like the kind of fundamentalism that one can see in the US. I mean if the Vatican can accept evolution and the Anglican Church can actually apologise to Darwin then they can’t exactly be too anti-science can they? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/51 "2009-02-18T13:39:19Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > I notice you only addressed half of my claim. Because the other half is true; believers who do good, DO do so in spite of, and not because of their religion. It can hardly be otherwise; since religion is fiction, any action taken according to it’s demands is only going to be a good idea by sheer luck. Or because the believer in question is ignoring their religion at the moment. > [@Calculon](#): > > So if atheism can’t motivate anyone to do anything, athiests do good is spite of their atheism. Are you really saying that do find motivatins to do good, one must look outside of atheism? Or motivations to do evil. Or any motivation at all. Expecting to find the motivation to do good out of atheism is like expecting the motivation to do good out of disbelief in goblins. The moral benefit provided by atheism is the lack of the error, ruthlessness and malice of religion; a purely negative value. Atheism isn’t a belief system; just the absence of a particular variety of belief. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think a _little_ of the blame for the notion, among some religious people, that Science is The Enemy, has to go to proponents of science who (like Richard Dawkins) pit science against religion, who claim that a scientific worldview excludes God and that modern scientific theories, like evolution, render fundamental religious beliefs, like the existence of God, impossible, implausible, and/or irrelevant. It’s not their fault if reality contradicts the delusions that so many people are fond of. It’s not Dawkin’s duty to lie and pretend that religion is anything other than destructive garbage. And it’s not like treating religion with kid gloves has ever returned atheists anything other than rabid hatred. The reason why so many religious people think that science is the enemy, is because they’re RIGHT. They are part of the forces of ignorance and irrationality and delusion, and science is by nature opposed to them. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/52 "2009-02-18T16:48:24Z")
> [@Spin\_Master](#): > > I live in Alabama and I noticed that I’m able to talk about almost every major school subject with ease and comfort. History, English, Math–no problem whatsoever. But when I start to touch the surface of Science, people look at me as if something’s wrong with me. > > When I talk about dinosaurs, they want to end the conversation. > > When I talk about anything outside of the solar system, they start to deny basic information that is taught in 6th grade. > > When I talk about what telescopes have been able to glimpse in the last 60 years, they completely deny the authenticity of those photographs. > > When I tell them I watch the Science channel, they almost laugh in my face. > > Everything else is perfectly okay to talk about but when I talk about anything scientific, it’s just too much for them. Why? What is the big deal? > > I realize there are theories they disagree with but why close their minds to common sense? There is mounting evidence that proves Metaphysics to be a valid branch of Science, there are dinosaur bones buried all of the world, Scientists have been able to use the information they gathered to predict the movements of Stars and planets with near-perfect precision, and some of the world’s best inventions were created as a result of scientific research. We are adults, right? Why persist in showing disdain for these things? They don’t. I’ve discussed scientific issues with numerous Christians, and none has ever asked me to believe anything that contradicts sound scientific method. Since the only “proof” of this sort of claim always comes from anonymous internet postings, I tend to disregard it. In fact, Christianity is a necessity for science. The the collection of ideas and procedures that we recognize as “science” originated in Christian civilization, at Christian institutions, thanks to people whose lives were devoted to Christ. Today we can compare the amount of scientific research in the United States to nations with a large proportion of atheists, such as France and the Scandinavian countries. The United States produces more original scientific research. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/53 "2009-02-18T16:55:26Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In fact, Christianity is a necessity for science. The the collection of ideas and procedures that we recognize as “science” originated in Christian civilization, at Christian institutions, thanks to people whose lives were devoted to Christ. People devoted to Christ, like Karl Popper? Spare us. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/54 "2009-02-18T16:56:37Z")
> [@Calculon](#): > > Which raises the larger question, why should they care? How will their life improve by spending all this time trawling through scientific tomes, especially if they don’t work in sciences. People only have so much free time. I think it unreasonable to expect people to educate themselves on topics they probably have little interest in. It is possible for people to be intelligent and just not care about sciences. > > Calculon. True, but we are talking about people opposed to science, not those who are disinterested. A person who cares nothing about religion might not be expected to read the Bible, but someone spending time discussing atheism, for instance, should read it (and other theology) - or else be considered as having insufficient knowledge to make a meaningful contribution. If all of science was hidden in technical papers, too difficult for the average person to read, then it would indeed be the fault of science. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/55 "2009-02-18T17:13:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In fact, Christianity is a necessity for science. The the collection of ideas and procedures that we recognize as “science” originated in Christian civilization, at Christian institutions, thanks to people whose lives were devoted to Christ. > > Today we can compare the amount of scientific research in the United States to nations with a large proportion of atheists, such as France and the Scandinavian countries. The United States produces more original scientific research. Science doesn’t have anything to do with Christianity, and its roots stem from a time nobody ever heard of that Jesus dude and reach right down to Aristotle’s Organon. Even if science and Christanity had arisen concurrently, this doesn’t implicate one as the cause of the other, nor does the fact that for a large part of history, science was mostly done in the monastery, since, well, everybody else was kinda too busy ploughing the fields so the fat bastards at the top had could stay fat bastards at the top. And your claim that the US produces more scientific research because of a greater spread of Christianity is similarly curious, seeing as how that’s not really the only difference between the countries you mention – next to economic, social, and cultural factors there’s also the minor issue of the US having five bloody times more people than France. I don’t really see how you could actually have believed you were making an honest argument. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/56 "2009-02-18T17:14:17Z")
> [@Calculon](#): > > So if atheism can’t motivate anyone to do anything, athiests do good is spite of their atheism. Are you really saying that do find motivatins to do good, one must look outside of atheism? > > Calculon. Are you motivated to do anything because you don’t believe in Zeus or Wotan? Atheists have some sort of ethical system to motivate us - which is generally different for each atheist. The great advantage of this is that we don’t have the problem of being impelled to do something that feels wrong because some god wants us to. We can blame real things - governments, bosses, our mothers; but at least they are all clearly imperfect and real. Is it really hard for you to get your head around the absence of a moral imperative as a part of atheism? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/57 "2009-02-18T17:18:18Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > They don’t. I’ve discussed scientific issues with numerous Christians, and none has ever asked me to believe anything that contradicts sound scientific method. Since the only “proof” of this sort of claim always comes from anonymous internet postings, I tend to disregard it. You must never have read creationist tracts then, since they ask us to believe all sorts of stuff that contradict sound scientific methods. > [@](#): > > In fact, Christianity is a necessity for science. The the collection of ideas and procedures that we recognize as “science” originated in Christian civilization, at Christian institutions, thanks to people whose lives were devoted to Christ. > > Today we can compare the amount of scientific research in the United States to nations with a large proportion of atheists, such as France and the Scandinavian countries. The United States produces more original scientific research. So, no Jews or Hindus or Moslems do science? All the polls I’ve seen indicate that scientists are less Christian than the country as a whole, and more so as you get to the higher levels of scientists. I’ve never seen a breakdown by type of Christianity, but I’d suspect that fundamentalist types do significantly worse than, say, Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/58 "2009-02-18T17:28:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In fact, Christianity is a necessity for science. The the collection of ideas and procedures that we recognize as “science” originated in Christian civilization, at Christian institutions, thanks to people whose lives were devoted to Christ. The fight against ignorance is a participatory sport you know. Maybe you should sit this particular one out on the bench because that is possibly one of the most ignorant statements I’ve read here on this subject. The Christian ‘invention’ of science was a reclamation of Greek knowledge. Islam both better preserved and built upon this knowledge and transmitted it to the west - the conquest of spain being particularly important. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/59 "2009-02-18T17:43:53Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Remember that woman who was all upset because she saw a rainbow in her sprinkler water, “where it didn’t belong”? (Sorry, I can’t find the link.) It was a lot easier for her to \*blame \*science, than to \*understand \*it. I hate to threadjack, but I’d really like to see this reference. It sounds hilarious – her exact words, the words of people around her, the actricle’s text, if even slightly sympathetic to her – would all be comedy gold. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344/60 "2009-02-18T17:55:27Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > I hate to threadjack, but I’d really like to see this reference. It sounds hilarious – her exact words, the words of people around her, the actricle’s text, if even slightly sympathetic to her – would all be comedy gold. It’s not an article, it’s a [YouTube-video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8), and it only starts out funny; once you realize it’s serious, it just becomes kind of sad; the woman has another couple of videos going ever further down batshit creek, you can easily find them on YouTube. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-christians-vehemently-opposed-to-science/486344.md?page=4)