# Why ARE so many high-level scientists Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973 "2004-09-25T00:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/81 "2011-07-24T14:57:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Are 55% of American economists Jewish? I doubt it. > Jews are overrepresented in those areas but not by that much. > > More so … what if it _was_? It would merely make the question into “why are Jews so overrepresented as doctors and economists?” And physicists, and writers of literature, and chemists, and people who would be the pool for the Peace Prize …? Then there’s the problem of Jews being _overrepresented_ in the Obama administration. At least [Cornel West](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/talk-cornel-west.html) thinks it’s a problem. \ ***"O.K., but did you also have to say that Obama “feels most comfortable with upper-middle-class white and Jewish men who consider themselves very smart”?** “It’s in no way an attempt to devalue white or Jewish brothers. It’s an objective fact. In his administration, he’s got a significant number of very smart white brothers and very smart Jewish brothers. You think that’s unimportant?”\* Of _course_ it’s important. Bad enough that our President feels comfortable around white people, he’s compounding it by listening to Too Many Jews, thus betraying the principles on which he was elected. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![b87lar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@b87lar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/b87lar)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/82 "2011-07-24T16:45:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Again I favor a cultural explanation, and believe that to a large degree those factors, in particular exposure to a wide variety of ideas from different cultures and the need to trade in those ideas, are wide spread now, no longer so much more common among Jews than among other peoples. But I also factor in a cultural tendency to argue. And this, I understand, is still in contrast with Chinese culture … for now. At least according to one radio interview with a Chinese scientist who had been in America for many years and who had returned to China, who bemoaned that he catches even himself asking his kids if they listened well to the teacher today, and went on to explain that Chinese educational culture is about listening to the teacher, not questioning what the teacher says. Jewish culture is all about arguing. The Bible stories we fixate on are the ones in which our Patriarchs and Matriarchs argued with God and sometimes even won. The name “Israel” literally [means the one who wrestles with God](http://www.mishpacha.org/wrestling.shtml) and it is a key feature of Jewish identity to this day. Jewish identity is not about _accepting_ any truth but about wrestling with it. China will not produce the top level scientists that its numbers would predict it should until culturally an attitude that open questioning and doubt is a good thing emerges victorious over the fear that questioning and doubt may undermine the governments authority. And they aint there yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I actually buy into your cultural explanation (the ultimate explanation is surely a mixture of several factors). On the other hand, the comparison with China is not one of an order of magnitude, it is one of two orders of magnitude (in terms of general population, for now). With their efforts to boost their scientific base we might soon see the same two orders of magnitude comparing fields in science and mathematics. The smartest of the smartest there will be --by definition-- questioning all truths presented to them. Unless you believe their cultural factor retards them in their endeavors by about two orders of magnitude, I think a Chinese “takeover” is bound to happen (not in a bad sense, mind you). Only time will tell. It will depend what that Chinese aparatchiks will decide to do strategically. It still baffles me that they could pull this whole pseudo-communism thing off so far, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/83 "2011-07-24T18:23:36Z")
> [@b87lar](#): > > … the comparison with China is not one of an order of magnitude, it is one of two orders of magnitude (in terms of general population, for now). With their efforts to boost their scientific base we might soon see the same two orders of magnitude comparing fields in science and mathematics. The smartest of the smartest there will be --by definition-- questioning all truths presented to them. … I don’t disagree, but for now you can apply your meaningful denominator eyes on China - What percent of Chinese citizens are getting a crack at higher education? Well out of the 1.3 billion plus in China there are, according to Wikipedia anyway, a mere 6 million enrolled in colleges and universities. And those numbers are a recent development; the Cultural Revolution had gutted their higher educational system. At this point the odds are that while the world Jewish population is a paltry 13 million, 1/1000th of the Chinese population, the number of Jews with college education or better is not _all that much_ less than the number of Chinese with such. Yes, to be sure, the Chinese are, as much as they can, selecting the best and brightest of their 1.3 billion to get the opportunity of higher education, but there are many many innately bright people locked away in small villages, not getting the chance to advance very far. I think a great amount of good science will come out of China, and given the numbers their share of Nobel level work will increase. But only part of what made Einstein Einstein was his IQ; another part of it was his cultural heritage to try argue with conventional wisdom. Not every scholar or academic does that. His attitude was this: “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.” And that was a product of his culture. China will produce some who have that combination as well, but per individual with an Einstein level IQ, they will produce fewer Einsteins … for now. I too expect that to change over time. Like the exposure to a wide variety of ideas, I think the tendency to question, doubt, and critically evaluate is also much more widespread across many cultures now, and it will gradually become the norm there as well. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/84 "2011-07-24T19:26:39Z")
> [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]Comparison was made with general population. But it has been mentioned several times in this thread that there are typical Jewish professions: doctors, lawyers, and the field of science. So the correct comparison would be: jewish population proportion in the field of Physics vs. proportion of NP laureates for Physics. That I can buy. No baloney abut 22% versus 0.2% world population, please [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]I agree comparison with the world population overstates the case because [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]of historical and persisting differences in opportunity. However, the ratio [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]22% : 0.2% (110 to 1) is so enormous that it justifies investigation on an [/COLOR] intuitive basis alone. [COLOR=black]It is specious to limit the population from which the sample is drawn to PhDs, [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]reason for which I have drawn attention to, and will elaborate below. [/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black](there are some non-Jewish readers with intellect, too) [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Did anyone say there were not?[/COLOR] > [@colonial](#): > > [COLOR=black]Oh? How does your Law of large numbers explain the proportionally much [/COLOR] > [COLOR=black]fewer US science laureates who have been Catholic, Baptist, Calvinist, [/COLOR] > [COLOR=black]Lutheran and Episcopalian? The same goes for Americans of English, Irish, [/COLOR] > [COLOR=black]German and Italian ancestry. For that matter there are about half as many [/COLOR] > [COLOR=black]Chinese Americans as there are American Jews, but Chinese Americans [/COLOR] > have produced nowhere near half as many laureates. > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]Cool, let’s let it shake a little longer and we’ll see! I am talking population sizes of Billions that will be rapidly gaining access to all fields of modern endeavors. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]For the second time: When are you going to tell us why the Law of large numbers [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]has failed so completely to account for past and present conditions? [/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]Very debatable. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]What is debatable? I would think to start with that _all_ PhD programs are [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]extremely selective, with only the best 10% or fewer BS/BA considered[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]for admission. And then there are those programs, like physics, requiring [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]mastery of advanced calculus, and probably other higher mathematics[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]such as the geometry of more than three dimensions. That would narrow [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]the field of potential applicants down to well under 1% of all BS/BA.[/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]But for the sake of argument - be it: [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]I do not think the argument is worthwhile.[/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]let us normalize from this point and compare the general Jewish proportion in the field of Physics (Do you have such numbers?) [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]This is an unreasonable number to ask for, since it is often forbidden to even [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]ask an applicant about his religious background. [/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]with the Nobel proportion? Do you have such numbers? [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Yes, as you seem to acknowledge approvingly.[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]In the interest of transparency I should relate that the 131 Jewish NP [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]for Chemistry-Physics-Medicine combined [/COLOR][COLOR=black]include 14 with one Jewish parent, [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]one with three Jewish grandparents, and [/COLOR][COLOR=black]one convert to Judaism. IMO [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]those with less than full Jewish ancestry should [/COLOR][COLOR=black]be considered fractionally. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Since the list includes several whose parents converted [/COLOR]_from_ Judaism I am not sure it is consistent to include a convert _to_ Judaism. > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]Don’t take me wrong I am not arguing Jews are not smart; I am only irritated by statistics being out next to each other to make all kinds of flawed comparisons. For example, here in NY suburbs, every second doctor is Jewish (my perception, maybe every third, whatever). Now there will be some proportion of “Best in NY” doctors (a NYT magazine award), say 33%. If I drew the same comparison as the poster I responded to, I would have stated: “There are 33% Jewish Best in NY Doctors; Jews represent only 2% of population.” I hope you see my point. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]I think I have addressed this. Although Medical School might not be [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]as hard to get into as a Physics PhD program, it is nevertheless highly [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]selective. Therefore the poster you responded to would be making [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]the correct comparison. [/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]I’d be genuinely interested to see a valid comparison for the field of physics. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]You already have one.[/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]I am nose deep in it, and yes. Discussing statistics that are pulled out of someone’s nose without much context tends to be highly wasteful, that’s all IMHO. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]I disagree any stat has been wasteful, although some may be useful only[/COLOR] [COLOR=black]as starting points for discussion.[/COLOR] > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]Like you said yourself “The problem is that we do not have any idea” …and we won’t, really. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]Speaking of context, I was referring not to the data, which is clear-cut, [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]I was referring to the reason underlying the data. I may have been guilty [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]of overdismissiveness of several quite believable if speculative suggestions[/COLOR] made by other members. > [@b87lar](#): > > [COLOR=black]And by the time we will, things will look differently again. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]I have already placed my bet on this. [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]But consider how many more people have access to quality education [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]now than 100 years ago, and ask yourself why the Jews are still churning [/COLOR] [COLOR=black]NP at a rate of better than one per year for the last six decades. [/COLOR] ---
**Author:** ![b87lar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8dc957/32.png) [@b87lar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/b87lar)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/85 "2011-07-25T03:33:09Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > [COLOR=black]22% : 0.2% (110 to 1) is so enormous that it justifies investigation on an [/COLOR] > intuitive basis alone. Yes, it’s so enormous that it’s not even wrong. > [@colonial](#): > > [COLOR=black]But consider how many more people have access to quality education [/COLOR] > [COLOR=black]now than 100 years ago, and ask yourself why the Jews are still churning [/COLOR] > [COLOR=black]NP at a rate of better than one per year for the last six decades. [/COLOR] Because Jews are the 110:1 smartest, brightest, most influential, irresistibly handsome ueber-poeple. If only those two remaining bastards Newton and Mozart were Jewish, too… ah, they must have secretly been so, anyway! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/86 "2011-07-25T04:41:27Z")
You seem to be taking this a bit personally, as if you are being personally slighted. Get over it. I don’t resent Jewish overachievement (I am not a Jew), or any one else’s, nor should you. > [@b87lar](#): > > Yes, it’s so enormous that it’s not even wrong. Hahaha- You must realize you are using the _bon mot_ of physics NP winner Wolfgangi Pauli, of Exclusion Principle fame. When another physicist proposed something that Pauli conisdered to be very poor science he would say “that is so bad that it is not even wrong” or some words to that effect. > [@b87lar](#): > > Because Jews are the 110:1 smartest, brightest Probably more like 20:1 or 30:1 as of now. > [@b87lar](#): > > most influential Christ? Marx? (even if their stars are suddenly waning). Come to think of it probably so. > [@b87lar](#): > > irresistibly handsome ueber-poeple. I would say 1:1 i.e. average-looking. > [@b87lar](#): > > If only those two remaining bastards Newton I think Jews were barred from the great universities of Europe until well into the 19th century. Had educational emancipation taken place earlier Newton might have had a run for his money. > [@b87lar](#): > > and Mozart were Jewish, too… ah, they must have secretly been so, anyway! 🙂 Musicians? Hm; among classical composers all I can think of is Mendelsson. Bob Dylan and Simon & Garfunkle are among the greats of Rock and Roll (Dylan’s \*Like a Rolling Stone \*was picked by the magazine Rolling Stone as #1 of the 500 best songs of all time) ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/87 "2011-07-25T09:04:26Z")
i prefer a medium- to big-city jewish doctor as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/88 "2012-03-01T21:28:15Z")
Median Household Income: 2009 Indians $88,538 Filipinos $75,146 Chinese $69,037 Japanese $64,197 American Jews $54,000 Koreans $53,025 Jewish intelligence = hype It’s interesting to note that the Nobel Prize Laureates Richard Feynman and Francis Crick had respective IQs of 125 and 115. Richard Feynman is widely considered to be the last great scientist of the 20th century. Therefore, I’d say we can only rely on IQ statistics to approximate their average intelligence because statistics like the number of Nobel or Fields Medal laureates is really meaningless IQ-wise. It’s like approximating the average height of a race by calculating the number of NBA MVPs. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/89 "2012-03-01T21:36:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ll leave this thread open for now, but please be aware this thread is more than six years old and some of the posters in it (including the OP) haven’t been on the board in a long time. Noting that this thread has been revived _again_. Before responding, please take note of when the posts were made. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/90 "2012-03-01T21:36:17Z")
Not to continue this farce, but your cite is? ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/91 "2012-03-01T21:38:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not to continue this farce, but your cite is? Bureau of Labor Statistics ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/92 "2012-03-01T21:39:44Z")
We’re on the internet. Provide a hyperlink. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/93 "2012-03-01T21:41:28Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Median Household Income: 2009 > Indians $88,538 > Filipinos $75,146 > Chinese $69,037 > Japanese $64,197 > American Jews $54,000 > Koreans $53,025 > > Jewish intelligence = hype Does median household income = intelligence? 😕 Last I checked, scientists were not paid as much as bankers - not even close. Does that mean that, as a group, scientists are not as intelligent as bankers? If so, becomming a graduate student is a certain sign of stupidity. Mind you, I suspected as much. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/94 "2012-03-01T21:49:36Z")
\>And while 27% of Americans have had college or postgraduate education, 59% of American Jews have, the highest of any religious group except Hindus. \>About 71% of Indian Americans have attained a Bachelor’s degree or more (compared to 28% nationally, and 44% average for all Asian American groups). Disproving the myth that the Jews have an IQ of 115. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/95 "2012-03-01T21:51:45Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Disproving the myth that the Jews have an IQ of 115. How? Also, what is the median household income of various groups in the U.S. supposed to tell anyone? ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/96 "2012-03-01T21:54:34Z")
It’s highly unlikely that they have an IQ of 115, which would be way greater than any other ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/97 "2012-03-01T22:00:02Z")
I think you’re probably right about that, but I don’t think the points you are making support that contention. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/98 "2012-03-01T22:01:02Z")
**objectivity** , welcome! Couple thoughts: Firstly, as **Marley23** pointed out, the previous discussion dates back to 2004. So, yanno, not really an active topic. Secondly, it could very well become an interesting and active discussion. But the definition of “interesting and active” around here relies upon actual fact, rational argument, and being able to support your claims. So with that in mind, you might be well-served to construct a coherent point and be able to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/99 "2012-03-01T22:02:55Z")
Instead of comparing the number of Jews who has won the Nobel Prize we should be looking at the number of scientists who have been cited many times for a scientific paper, upward of, say, 40 000 times. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/100 "2012-03-01T22:17:07Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Median Household Income: 2009 > Indians $88,538 > Filipinos $75,146 > Chinese $69,037 > Japanese $64,197 > American Jews $54,000 > Koreans $53,025 > > Jewish intelligence = hype I wonder what those numbers would have been 50 years ago. In my town at least, we have a large population among these groups of the best and the brightest of people from their home countries, who excelled at university, came here to study, and got high salary engineering jobs. Many of these first generation immigrants are living in expensive houses. (I’m not complaining - they earn every penny of their salaries and have contributed tons to the country.) My great grandparents lived in tenements. There was selection for people with guts coming here in the 1880s - 1910s, not necessarily those with the highest intelligence, and definitely not for those with money who often were doing just fine. So, I don’t think your statistics say anything very interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=6)