# Why ARE so many high-level scientists Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973 "2004-09-25T00:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/101 "2012-03-01T23:51:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I wonder what those numbers would have been 50 years ago. In my town at least, we have a large population among these groups of the best and the brightest of people from their home countries, who excelled at university, came here to study, and got high salary engineering jobs. Many of these first generation immigrants are living in expensive houses. (I’m not complaining - they earn every penny of their salaries and have contributed tons to the country.) My great grandparents lived in tenements. > > There was selection for people with guts coming here in the 1880s - 1910s, not necessarily those with the highest intelligence, and definitely not for those with money who often were doing just fine. > So, I don’t think your statistics say anything very interesting. Indians, guts? That’s new. I thought Chinese and Indian males were emasculated. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/102 "2012-03-02T01:06:39Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Disproving the myth that the Jews have an IQ of 115. You haven’t disproven that. Moreover, you have yet to provide a link to your stats. Please do so. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/103 "2012-03-02T01:08:46Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Indians, guts? That’s new. I thought Chinese and Indian males were emasculated. Considering the population numbers of India and China it’s pretty obvious that they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/104 "2012-03-02T01:18:52Z")
> [@NewHeart\_Male](#): > > And the biggest question of all is, _ **why** _? > > Are they just naturally better at handling the abstract world, is it down to a previous establishment of the values of academic discipline (perhaps through religion), or is it something else? > > Please discuss. Here is one [reason](http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-jewish-iq18-2009apr18,0,7978229.story): > [@](#): > > But Cochran, 55, and Harpending, 65, say there’s no question that as a whole, Ashkenazi Jews – those of European descent – have an abundance of brain power. (Neither man is Jewish.) > > Psychologists and educational researchers have pegged their average IQ at 107.5 to 115. That’s only modestly higher than the overall European average of 100, but the gap is large enough to produce a huge difference in the proportion of geniuses. When a group’s average IQ is 100, the percentage of people above 140 is 0.4%; when the average is 110, the genius rate is 2.3%. Cochran, Harpending & Henry’s full paper [here](http:// harpending.humanevo.utah.edu/Documents/ashkiq.webpub.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/105 "2012-03-02T01:27:00Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Indians, guts? That’s new. I thought Chinese and Indian males were emasculated. Bizarre, irrelevant, and racist (or abjectly failed sarcasm). Next? ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/106 "2012-03-02T01:38:31Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Considering the population numbers of India and China it’s pretty obvious that they’re not. Ashkenazi Jews are just Kazakhs with European blood who adhere to Judaism, just like Chinese Americans and Indian Americans are subgroups within a larger group. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/107 "2012-03-02T01:42:15Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Indians, guts? That’s new. I thought Chinese and Indian males were emasculated. If you’d care to respond without resorting to racist stereotypes, please do so. Not to mention I know plenty of really good women engineers from these places. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/108 "2012-03-02T01:51:46Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Ashkenazi Jews are just Kazakhs with European blood who adhere to Judaism, just like Chinese Americans and Indian Americans are subgroups within a larger group. You misspelled Khazars, you’re claim regarding Ashenazi Jews is wrong, and even if it were correct it would be irrelevant to the racist post that preceded it. If you wish your arguments to be taken seriously, I’d recommend you stop being racist and make better thought out posts. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/109 "2012-03-02T02:37:19Z")
So apart from the fact that modern Jews aren’t descended from the Khazars, income does not equal IQ, and the claims about income still haven’t been linked to a cite, yah, great job there. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/110 "2012-03-02T02:54:35Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Ashkenazi Jews are just Kazakhs with European blood who adhere to Judaism, just like Chinese Americans and Indian Americans are subgroups within a larger group. Sorry. This nonsense was debunked, years ago. Koestler made a few intersting conjectures\*, (although he pretty much ignored all of known history to do so), but both actual history and current DNA research have long proved him wrong. The Kazakh nobility did convert to Judaism, in large part. However, they were never a numerous people and when they were overrun, they dispersed into the Balkans and up the Danube. Koestler wanted them to have then moved up the Dneiper, (and, oddly, the Volga), to Russia, but there is no record that they did. On the other hand, we have a lot of historical records indicating that the Ashkenazim were traders of Northern Europe who moved Eastward from regions in Germany, (at about the same time that the Teutonic knights were moving into what became Prussia). More recently, DNA analysis has demonstrated that the Ashkenazim are clearly descended from the same stock as the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, not from any Slavic groups who might have lived near Crimea. - (And while Koestler was simply a dilletante who wanted to sell some books, the old, defunct [melvig.org](http://melvig.org) web site, (the domain of which has long since been taken over by a porn site), was nothing but a bunch of racist nutters who fabricated pretty much everything they posted.) ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/111 "2012-03-02T03:00:06Z")
Culture ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/112 "2012-03-02T03:27:40Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Ashkenazi Jews are just Kazakhs with European blood who adhere to Judaism, **just like Chinese Americans and Indian Americans are subgroups within a larger group**. Oops, totally forgot the last part of the post which may be almost as foolish as the first part. Exactly how are Chinese Americans and Indian Americans genetically distinct from mainland Chinese and Mainland Indians? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/113 "2012-03-02T03:29:48Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Indians, guts? That’s new. I thought Chinese and Indian males were emasculated. Our main rule here is “Don’t be a jerk.” This counts as being a jerk and makes a very bad first impression. Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/114 "2012-03-02T04:05:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Oops, totally forgot the last part of the post which may be almost as foolish as the first part. > > Exactly how are Chinese Americans and Indian Americans genetically distinct from mainland Chinese and Mainland Indians? Lower-caste Indians are genetically distinct from upper and middle-caste Indians. Just look at their faces. They seem to belong to a different race. Even if Ashekenazi Jews aren’t Khazars, it still doesn’t refute the fact they come from the Eastern part of Eurasia. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/115 "2012-03-02T04:08:04Z")
In the last Intel STS, the Chinese Americans were overrepresented by 7200%. They outnumbered Whites in the finals. I doubt some guy would use this in order to claim that Chinese Americans have 72 times more geniuses than Whites. Same can be said about the overrepresentation of Jews among the Nobel Prize recipients. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/116 "2012-03-02T04:11:59Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Even if Ashekenazi Jews aren’t Khazars, it still doesn’t refute the fact they come from the Eastern part of Eurasia. Are you just throwing shit at the wall in the hopes that some will stick? Yet again, a citation for your income study. Then, an analysis of what predictive and/or analytical power income has to do with IQ. Then some sort of connection to your comments about Khazars/“Eastern… Eurasia”. > [@objectivity](#): > > Same can be said about the overrepresentation of Jews among the Nobel Prize recipients. Please state exactly what your statistical argument is. Because when a group which makes up a tiny percent of the population at large fills 25% of the freely selected spots for an award, it’s evident that something other than pure random chance is at work. While IQ is not a likely measure, as we’ve discussed at length, that doesn’t mean that your method of… analysis… is cogent. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/117 "2012-03-02T04:22:32Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > It’s highly unlikely that they have an IQ of 115, which would be way greater than any other ethnic group. Read the Harpending paper I [linked](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14827757&postcount=102). It discusses how this could arise. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/118 "2012-03-02T04:23:23Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Lower-caste Indians are genetically distinct from upper and middle-caste Indians. Are you trying to argue that American Indians are Upper-caste while those living in India are Lower-caste? If so, please provide a link to prove that. > [@](#): > > Just look at their faces. They seem to belong to a different race. No, that’s not true. There are many light-skinned Low-caste Hindus and many High-caste Hindus. Additionally, many are Muslims. In fact more Muslims live in India than in the entire Arab world. Finally, please, for the millionth time, provide a link to your claims about the income of various ethnic groups in the US. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/119 "2012-03-02T04:54:48Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Even if Ashekenazi Jews aren’t Khazars, it still doesn’t refute the fact they come from the Eastern part of Eurasia. Simply not true. As I already noted, DNA has already established that Ashkenazim are of the same stock as other Jews–all originating in the far West of Asia at the East end of the Mediterranean Sea, not in the “Eastern” part of Eurasia, and more closely related to other Middle Eastern peoples than to other groups. > **[Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of...](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC18733/?tool=pmcentrez)** > > Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North ... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/120 "2012-03-02T05:48:44Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Even if Ashekenazi Jews aren’t Khazars, it still doesn’t refute the fact they come from the Eastern part of Eurasia. The Eastern part of Eurasia is China. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=7)