# Why ARE so many high-level scientists Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973 "2004-09-25T00:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/141 "2012-03-02T18:49:09Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Instead of comparing the number of Jews who has won the Nobel Prize we should be looking at the number of scientists who have been cited many times for a scientific paper, upward of, say, 40 000 times. Okey-dokey, let’s start with [Noam Chomsky](http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1992/citation-0415.html) (who just happens to be a ‘member of the tribe’[sup]©[/sup]) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/142 "2012-03-02T18:50:09Z")
Well that 74% figure may be realistic given the nature of the Taiwanese educational system but it is [unclear what it actually means](http://eileenlin1219.pixnet.net/blog/post/21517066-higher-education-systems%3A-a-comparison-between-the-us-and-ta), and even more unclear what relevance it has to this discussion. The question of this re-resurrected thread was trying to parse out why Jews are so over-represented in the ranks of those who come up with the most significant new ideas in a variety of fields, Nobel Prize winners being one example given. One take, and the one I personally lean to, is the cultural/historical explanation. No need to repeat those posts yet again. It is the simple and sufficient explanation and there is no need to evoke genetic bases and the baggage that such brings with it. Another take is actually a modification of that which goes on to state that those cultural factors ended up have an impact on who reproduced more successfully, thus those with higher intelligence and creativity, especially in verbal realms, had greater reproductive success, to the degree that the mean was shifted rightward for the population as a whole (and with it a predilection to certain brain diseases) and the sigma outliers shifted that much rightward as well. I am not so sure that I am convinced by that data although 400 indeed _can_ be a meaningful sample size if carefully randomized. The uncited claims made by our new participant inform naught on the question, even if true. The typical income of Jews is no different that the typical income of the typical American or at least is outpaced by various other groups? So what relevance if true? It’s [not](http://www.pewforum.org/Income-Distribution-Within-US-Religious-Groups.aspx) btw. (And note that Hindus in America are a very select subpopulation of the group as a whole. If you want to use income as a metric, and such would be a very poor one I think, use worldwide populations.) It’s because Jews actually descend from a particular European subgroup? Again, the fact that the claim is false is immaterial to the fact that it has no bearing on the question even if it was true. Unless one claims that that European subgroup was an unusually bright one. Another country/culture graduates more from college? And? Taiwanese are ethnically the same as the mainland which has a low graduation from college rate and neither reflects the innate intelligence of the individuals who live there. So far that population is under-represented in the ranks of achievements like the Nobel Prize (although I think that will be changing rapidly and dramatically very soon.) So what that the facts are wrong? They don’t make any point even if they were true. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/143 "2012-03-02T18:54:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > So what level scientists are we talking about? Do they have any epic science feats yet? All the high-level Jewish scientists live in the Epic Pale. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/144 "2012-03-02T19:40:41Z")
I should expect a valuation of education would translate into higher wealth, but Israel is not particular successful in creating wealth. Sure, compared to the stunning failures of its immediate neighbours it is doing ok. But compared to for instance Europe, it’s not doing spectacular at all. CIA World Fact Book clocks it in under Spain and just above Greece (GDP per capita). Denmark is almost twice as good at generating wealth. As for patents. Wikipedia says that it was granted just a few more new than Denmark, but it has more than 1.5 times the population. It’s not in top-20 of patents in force. If it has a very educated population it appears not to have translated into a very inventive population. I can’t remember a film, book, music group, or any artist who have made a great international impression. I’m sure there must be some, but probably again not in a way that makes it stand out compared to other nations. All in all, Israel – the nation with the highest number of Jews - appears to be a moderately successful small nation, but in no way special or outstanding. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/145 "2012-03-02T19:58:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Well that 74% figure may be realistic given the nature of the Taiwanese educational system but it is [unclear what it actually means](http://eileenlin1219.pixnet.net/blog/post/21517066-higher-education-systems%3A-a-comparison-between-the-us-and-ta), and even more unclear what relevance it has to this discussion. > > The question of this re-resurrected thread was trying to parse out why Jews are so over-represented in the ranks of those who come up with the most significant new ideas in a variety of fields, Nobel Prize winners being one example given. > > One take, and the one I personally lean to, is the cultural/historical explanation. No need to repeat those posts yet again. It is the simple and sufficient explanation and there is no need to evoke genetic bases and the baggage that such brings with it. > > Another take is actually a modification of that which goes on to state that those cultural factors ended up have an impact on who reproduced more successfully, thus those with higher intelligence and creativity, especially in verbal realms, had greater reproductive success, to the degree that the mean was shifted rightward for the population as a whole (and with it a predilection to certain brain diseases) and the sigma outliers shifted that much rightward as well. I am not so sure that I am convinced by that data although 400 indeed _can_ be a meaningful sample size if carefully randomized. > > The uncited claims made by our new participant inform naught on the question, even if true. > > The typical income of Jews is no different that the typical income of the typical American or at least is outpaced by various other groups? So what relevance if true? It’s [not](http://www.pewforum.org/Income-Distribution-Within-US-Religious-Groups.aspx) btw. (And note that Hindus in America are a very select subpopulation of the group as a whole. If you want to use income as a metric, and such would be a very poor one I think, use worldwide populations.) > > It’s because Jews actually descend from a particular European subgroup? Again, the fact that the claim is false is immaterial to the fact that it has no bearing on the question even if it was true. Unless one claims that that European subgroup was an unusually bright one. > > Another country/culture graduates more from college? And? Taiwanese are ethnically the same as the mainland which has a low graduation from college rate and neither reflects the innate intelligence of the individuals who live there. So far that population is under-represented in the ranks of achievements like the Nobel Prize (although I think that will be changing rapidly and dramatically very soon.) > > So what that the facts are wrong? They don’t make any point even if they were true. There are various ethnic groups in India and within those subgroups there are other groups as well. Just as Ashkenazi Jews are a few select people who stem from a larger group, Indian Americans are a few select people who stem from a larger group that is surprisingly diverse. Lower-caste Indians have a different genetic makeup. A tour in a big Indian city would make it very clear. So are you suggesting that because Ashkenazi Jews adhere to a certain religion, they should be considered are different from Indian Americans, even though they are just a group of very select Khazars, or whatever else they are, who interbred with higher class Whites? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/146 "2012-03-02T20:05:19Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > So are you suggesting that because Ashkenazi Jews adhere to a certain religion, they should be considered are different from Indian Americans, even though they are just a group of very select Khazars, or whatever else they are, who interbred with higher class Whites? The Khazar thing was already debunked, so using it in this kinda-sorta way discredits your case. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/147 "2012-03-02T20:12:39Z")
My point still stands. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/148 "2012-03-02T20:21:56Z")
Your point that Jews somethingsomethingsomething Khazars somethingsomethingsomething… Not, perhaps, as cogent or compelling as you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/149 "2012-03-02T20:27:03Z")
All I am trying to say is that I very much doubt that Jews are as exceptional as we say. There are other groups that are just as successful if not more. Try to refute that, AshkeNAZI. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/150 "2012-03-02T20:27:59Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Try to refute that, AshkeNAZI. That’s a formal warning, and you will be banned if you insult anybody any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/151 "2012-03-02T20:37:15Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > All I am trying to say is that I very much doubt that Jews are as exceptional as we say. Your doubt is registered but hardly persuasive. Few if any people this ancient thread, however, have claimed that Jews are “exceptional”. What folks have done is point out that Jews are significantly overrepresented in certain fields, and propose explanations for this fact. You, on the other hand, have yet to provide a citation for your original claim (which as DSeid showed us via a cite was wrong anyways), have not provided any valid studies on how income is a measurement of IQ, and have repeated the Khazar Myth as if it has relevance and substance. If you are simply here to argue against “Jewish exceptionalism” then you are arguing against a strawman that has not been championed here. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/152 "2012-03-02T20:38:09Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I should expect a valuation of education would translate into higher wealth, but Israel is not particular successful in creating wealth. Sure, compared to the stunning failures of its immediate neighbours it is doing ok. But compared to for instance Europe, it’s not doing spectacular at all. CIA World Fact Book clocks it in under Spain and just above Greece (GDP per capita). Denmark is almost twice as good at generating wealth. > > As for patents. Wikipedia says that it was granted just a few more new than Denmark, but it has more than 1.5 times the population. It’s not in top-20 of patents in force. If it has a very educated population it appears not to have translated into a very inventive population. > > I can’t remember a film, book, music group, or any artist who have made a great international impression. I’m sure there must be some, but probably again not in a way that makes it stand out compared to other nations. > > All in all, Israel – the nation with the highest number of Jews - appears to be a moderately successful small nation, but in no way special or outstanding. Well, the fact that it faces - to put it mildly - a slightly more hostile situation as a nation than (say) Denmark, and thus must divert rather more resorces both financial and intellectual to matters of defence than places like Denmark, may have something to do with that. But fair enough - my take on the matter is that the relative success of Jews has to do with the “outsider effect”, the same reason why (say) the Overseas Chinese are successful in Indonesia (thus nothing whatever to do with genetic factors). If that is true, one would predict that Jews in a country mostly composed of Jews would lose whatever edge that being outsiders in majority society would give them. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/153 "2012-03-02T21:00:52Z")
I would agree **Malthus** , especially as one gets progressively more into generations born within the country and thus the society is less a mash up of different cultural ideas and influences interacting with each other. And again, that advantage that Jews historically had as a culture, being _a coherent people spread out_ and travelling throughout the world’s cultures and _trading in ideas_ as the only resource available, is now not so unique, as the internet and other media influences have made geopolitical borders less significant to other groups’ exposures to the whole world’s worth of concept and cultural influences. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/154 "2012-03-02T22:30:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Your doubt is registered but hardly persuasive. > Few if any people this ancient thread, however, have claimed that Jews are “exceptional”. > What folks have done is point out that Jews are significantly overrepresented in certain fields, and propose explanations for this fact. > > You, on the other hand, have yet to provide a citation for your original claim (which as DSeid showed us via a cite was wrong anyways), have not provided any valid studies on how income is a measurement of IQ, and have repeated the Khazar Myth as if it has relevance and substance. If you are simply here to argue against “Jewish exceptionalism” then you are arguing against a strawman that has not been championed here. I never said that income is a measurement of IQ. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/155 "2012-03-02T22:39:52Z")
And yet you offered an incorrect claim about income, without a cite, in an attempt to gainsay claims about IQ. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/156 "2012-03-02T22:43:20Z")
Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in physics who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below. [http://www.jinfo.org/Nobels\_Physics.html](http://www.jinfo.org/Nobels_Physics.html) The problem is that may Nobel Laureates were not 100% Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/157 "2012-03-02T22:45:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And yet you offered an incorrect claim about income, without a cite, in an attempt to gainsay claims about IQ. On an individual basis, income and intelligence is not highly related; however, on a group basis, it sure is because it is associated with the level of education of a group. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/158 "2012-03-02T22:50:24Z")
Rather obviously if there is no individual connection then getting a bunch of individuals together does not somehow create a connection. And last time I checked we have students filling seats in classrooms, not groups. At this point you also need to provide cites and explicit logic for why education is somehow connected to IQ. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/159 "2012-03-02T22:52:28Z")
It is common knowlegde that IQ is highly related to income and educational attainment. Otherwise, we wouldn’t even use IQ as a measure. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/160 "2012-03-02T22:55:36Z")
So your post is your cite, check. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=9)