# Why ARE so many high-level scientists Jewish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 25, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973 "2004-09-25T00:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/161 "2012-03-02T23:05:17Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in physics who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below. > > [Jewish Nobel Prize Winners in Physics](http://www.jinfo.org/Nobels_Physics.html) > > The problem is that may Nobel Laureates were not 100% Jewish. Yes, that list was part of the premise of the op. 26% of world total, 37% of US total of, in the case that you linked to, Nobel Prize Winners in Physics (you could do Economics and see 41% of world total, 53% of US total, even the least, the Peace Prize, has 9% of world total, 10% of US total). And the question of the op was: why percents that are so much greater than their representation in the world or in the United States respectively? Your answer is that it is because the list includes those who are one quarter and half Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/162 "2012-03-02T23:29:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes, that list was part of the premise of the op. 26% of world total, 37% of US total of, in the case that you linked to, Nobel Prize Winners in Physics (you could do Economics and see 41% of world total, 53% of US total, even the least, the Peace Prize, has 9% of world total, 10% of US total). And the question of the op was: why percents that are so much greater than their representation in the world or in the United States respectively? > > Your answer is that it is because the list includes those who are one quarter and half Jewish? That’s not my answer, but if you say that high income has nothing to do with intelligence then winning the Nobel Prize hasn’t any relation with intelligence either. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/163 "2012-03-02T23:30:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes, that list was part of the premise of the op. 26% of world total, 37% of US total of, in the case that you linked to, Nobel Prize Winners in Physics (you could do Economics and see 41% of world total, 53% of US total, even the least, the Peace Prize, has 9% of world total, 10% of US total). And the question of the op was: why percents that are so much greater than their representation in the world or in the United States respectively? > > Your answer is that it is because the list includes those who are one quarter and half Jewish? One of the reasons is because Chinese and Indians lived in dirt-poor countries. So saying 41% of world total is really meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/164 "2012-03-02T23:35:14Z")
_Very_ high IQ has a correlation with middle-class income. My theory is that these scores are sometimes more an indication of focus on raw academic skills rather than an indication of pure talent. On the other hand, mere _high_ IQ does have a correlation with high income. My theory of course is that these individuals tend to be more well-rounded with people skills. I would think that Nobel Prize winners would test very high rather than simply high for IQ (despite whatever their “actual” intelligence is), because IQ tests do tend to favor those with high academic knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/165 "2012-03-02T23:38:05Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > _Very_ high IQ has a correlation with middle-class income. My theory is that these scores are sometimes more an indication of focus on raw academic skills rather than an indication of pure talent. Who are you talking to and what the hell are you saying? Top scientists earn upward of 150 000$. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/166 "2012-03-02T23:38:52Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Listed below are recipients of the Nobel Prize in physics who were, or are, Jewish (or of half- or three-quarters-Jewish descent, as noted). The percentages given above are those corresponding to only those names that appear explicitly on the list below. > > [Jewish Nobel Prize Winners in Physics](http://www.jinfo.org/Nobels_Physics.html) > > The problem is that may Nobel Laureates were not 100% Jewish. What problem? See my reply #82 page #2 this thread: Of 130 Jewish NP in for Chemistry-Physics-Medicine combined (one convert to Judaism discounted): 115 had two Jewish parents 15 had one Jewish parent Another way of looking at it is that 94% of the parents of the 130 were Jews. I do not think that significantly diminishes the statistical dominance of Jewish NP winners. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/167 "2012-03-02T23:42:33Z")
Richard Feynman is easily the last great scientist of the 20th century, yet his IQ was only 125. The number of Nobel Prize laureates is meaningless IQ-wise. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/168 "2012-03-02T23:56:40Z")
Okay, so your response to the op and the subject of this thread is not based on the ocassional non-Jewish parent of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners (or, I presume, of the 25% of [Japan’s Kyoto Prize](http://www.jinfo.org/Kyoto.html) winners that have been Jewish, or the 38% of the winners of [the U.S. National Medal of Science](http://www.jinfo.org/Medal_of_Science.html)). What is your response to the actual subject of this thread? Is it now that winning these prizes “is meaningless”? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/169 "2012-03-03T00:05:37Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Richard Feynman is easily the last great scientist of the 20th century, yet his IQ was only 125. The number of Nobel Prize laureates is meaningless IQ-wise. No, that merely suggests that IQ is, at best, a rather imperfect measure of a person’s intelligence. Anyone, in your short time on this thread you have made reckless charges which you’ve repeatedly refused to provide citations for and when challenged responded with racial slurs. You do little to inspire confidence in the idea that you’re here to engage in honest debate, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. So, please provide a link to back you your claim regarding the family incomes of different ethnic groups and provide a link to show that low-caste Hindus are “genetically” different than high-caste Hindus. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/170 "2012-03-03T00:11:07Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Richard Feynman is easily the last great scientist of the 20th century, yet his IQ was only 125. The number of Nobel Prize laureates is meaningless IQ-wise. Feynman’s Caltech colleague Murray Gell-Mann of “Quark” fame (look it up) might take umbrage at that, and so might other NB luminaries such as Steven Weinberg (Jew), Sheldon Glashow (Jew) and Abdus Salaam (Muslim). Futhermore, any IQ test grading Feynman as low as 125 is invalid. Feynman deserved more than that for his mathematical ability alone. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/171 "2012-03-03T00:30:16Z")
BTW, don’t know where you get that $150K bit and doubt you will come up with a cite for it, but [here](http://jupiterscientific.org/sciinfo/sciencesalaries.html) is some real information on salaries that scientists make. Solidly middle class. As to the nature of the correlation between IQ and income. Well there have been “great debates” over that, many of them, but [here’s one study](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289607000219) of interest for you: > [@](#): > > each point increase in IQ test scores raises income by between $234 and $616 per year after holding a variety of factors constant. Regression results suggest no statistically distinguishable relationship between IQ scores and wealth. Financial distress, such as problems paying bills, going bankrupt or reaching credit card limits, is related to IQ scores not linearly but instead in a quadratic relationship. This means higher IQ scores sometimes increase the probability of being in financial difficulty. Among the individuals I have known, which have included many average, some bright and a handful of geniuses, there is only slight correlation. The _most_ economically successful have _not_ been the geniuses but the bright who place money as the single sign of success and who have good people skills; the very brightest are doing well but are often in academia or have self sabotaged by showing up bosses or other inter-personally stupid things along the way. That is of course just anecdotally. But, no, I would not take the fact that there is a larger percent of Jews who make over $100K a year in the United States than for any other religiously identified group (including Hindu), as evidence of Jewish intelligence. As you accurately (to my mind) point out: education, intellectual, and economic success are only explained by intelligence to some small degree; opportunity and culture are larger factors. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/172 "2012-03-03T02:37:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > BTW, don’t know where you get that $150K bit and doubt you will come up with a cite for it, but [here](http://jupiterscientific.org/sciinfo/sciencesalaries.html) is some real information on salaries that scientists make. Solidly middle class. > > As to the nature of the correlation between IQ and income. Well there have been “great debates” over that, many of them, but [here’s one study](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289607000219) of interest for you: > > Among the individuals I have known, which have included many average, some bright and a handful of geniuses, there is only slight correlation. The _most_ economically successful have _not_ been the geniuses but the bright who place money as the single sign of success and who have good people skills; the very brightest are doing well but are often in academia or have self sabotaged by showing up bosses or other inter-personally stupid things along the way. That is of course just anecdotally. But, no, I would not take the fact that there is a larger percent of Jews who make over $100K a year in the United States than for any other religiously identified group (including Hindu), as evidence of Jewish intelligence. As you accurately (to my mind) point out: education, intellectual, and economic success are only explained by intelligence to some small degree; opportunity and culture are larger factors. Explaining why Black people are poor as Hell. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/173 "2012-03-03T02:38:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Okay, so your response to the op and the subject of this thread is not based on the ocassional non-Jewish parent of Jewish Nobel Prize Winners (or, I presume, of the 25% of [Japan’s Kyoto Prize](http://www.jinfo.org/Kyoto.html) winners that have been Jewish, or the 38% of the winners of [the U.S. National Medal of Science](http://www.jinfo.org/Medal_of_Science.html)). > > What is your response to the actual subject of this thread? > > Is it now that winning these prizes “is meaningless”? You don’t need to have a IQ of 200 to win those prizes. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/174 "2012-03-03T02:43:06Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Who are you talking to and what the hell are you saying? Top scientists earn upward of 150 000$. So top scientists earn an upper-middle class income. Top businessmen earn billions. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/175 "2012-03-03T02:43:29Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Feynman’s Caltech colleague Murray Gell-Mann of “Quark” fame (look it up) > might take umbrage at that, and so might other NB luminaries such as > Steven Weinberg (Jew), Sheldon Glashow (Jew) and Abdus Salaam (Muslim). > > Futhermore, any IQ test grading Feynman as low as 125 is invalid. Feynman > deserved more than that for his mathematical ability alone. In high school, his IQ was determined to be 125—high, but “merely respectable” according to biographer James Gleick.[14] Feynman later scoffed at psychometric testing. By 15, he had learned differential and integral calculus. Before entering college, he was experimenting with and re-creating mathematical topics, such as the half-derivative, using his own notation. In high school, he was developing the mathematical intuition behind his Taylor series of mathematical operators.[15] … What? I can’t hear ya! ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/176 "2012-03-03T02:44:53Z")
You will probably tell me that his IQ increased over time. That’s unlikely at best. It tends to stay the same. Actually, it decreases with age. You have to take into account that he studied hard all his life, so I really doubt his IQ increased significantly during his later years. ---
**Author:** ![objectivity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ccd318/32.png) [@objectivity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/objectivity)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/177 "2012-03-03T02:46:27Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So top scientists earn an upper-middle class income. Top businessmen earn billions. Billions? There are like 20 billionaires on earth. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/178 "2012-03-03T02:56:41Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Billions? There are like 20 billionaires on earth. There are 1210 billionaires in the world as of March 2011. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/179 "2012-03-03T03:00:25Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > In high school, his IQ was determined to be 125—high, but “merely respectable” according to biographer James Gleick.[14] Feynman later scoffed at psychometric testing. **By 15, he had learned differential and integral calculus**. **Before entering college, he was experimenting with and re-creating mathematical topics, such as the half-derivative, using his own notation. In high school, he was developing the mathematical intuition behind his Taylor series of mathematical operators**.[15] > > … What? I can’t hear ya! Then I’ll say it again: > [@colonial](#): > > any IQ test grading Feynman as low as 125 is invalid. Maybe it will dawn on you that I was not denying the numerical results were 125, I was denying they were an accurate measurment of Feynman’s intelligence. The reasons I deny it are highlighted in the quote you kindly provided from Gleick, whose bio _Genius_ I have read. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973/180 "2012-03-03T03:05:45Z")
> [@objectivity](#): > > Billions? There are like 20 billionaires on earth. That’s an utterly moronic comment which shows massive ignorance about the world. Anyway please provide links for your asinine claim that low-caste and high-caste Hindus are “genetically different” and the link for your post regarding the median incomes of various ethnic groups in the US. You’ve made too many errors for us to take your claims at face value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-high-level-scientists-jewish/265973.md?page=10)