# Why are so many people fixated on Scientology? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979 "2009-06-16T19:58:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/101 "2009-06-19T05:52:17Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Glad to blow your mind. > > P.S. How do you see the original? I see them because I get auto-emails about threads I’ve posted in. $15 well spent. Also, I would love to know how that statement could have been any more ridiculous than it was. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/102 "2009-06-19T05:56:14Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > Also, I would love to know how that statement could have been any more ridiculous than it was. It’s a philosophy which you don’t agree with and do not even comprehend. Not quite the same as ridiculous. Many people feel that taking a man’s life is horrible, but giving a man life… is also bad. Others differ. (For the sake of sticking to the discussion, this is an example of tenets held by real religions. Tenets which lead them to certain principled actions, which others disagree with on similarly principled grounds. Yet scientology seems to lack any such sort of thing. As far as we know. Another argument why it’s not really a religion.) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/103 "2009-06-19T06:01:22Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > P.S. How do you see the original? As soon as you click ‘Submit Reply’ it sends a notification with your original message. ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/104 "2009-06-19T06:02:58Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > It’s a philosophy which you don’t agree with and do not even comprehend. Not quite the same as ridiculous. Many people feel that taking a man’s life is horrible, but giving a man life… is also bad. Others differ. I see. It’s so incomprehensible to me that I can’t even know what it is. Staggering. > [@](#): > > (For the sake of sticking to the discussion, that is an example of tenets held by real religions. Tenets which lead them to certain principled actions, which others disagree with on similarly principled grounds. Yet scientology seems to lack any such sort of thing. As far as we know. Another argument why it’s not really a religion.) Agree completely. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/105 "2009-06-19T06:04:27Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > I see them because I get auto-emails about threads I’ve posted in. $15 well spent. I see. Actually I think I can opt-in for emails too, but never understood why someone would want their mailbox so spammed. (Plus think how unhealthy it would be for the dope addiction!) ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/106 "2009-06-19T06:06:39Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > I see. Actually I think I can opt-in for emails too, but never understood why someone would want their mailbox so spammed. (Plus think how unhealthy it would be for the dope addiction!) You can turn 'em on and off too. If there’s a thread I’m particularly interested in, I leave it on, if it’s “People Who Hate Children,” I turn it off. Of course, that thread just kept pulling me back in. Damn you, **curlcoat**! ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/107 "2009-06-19T13:33:05Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > No condom use in Africa to help prevent aids. That is happening now. Yes, the COS does bad things to people. It may even kill people. The numbers that the COS will affect doesn’t even approach what will happen in Africa because of that one dictate by the Catholic church. Whatever good it does, which could happen with or without it, doesn’t overcome the evil that it has done and continues to do. Again, how many Catholics follow the church’s birth control mandates to a T? And if you don’t use a condom, the church’s leaders aren’t going to come harass you and write it up in a personal file. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/108 "2009-06-19T13:39:12Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > And if you don’t use a condom, the church’s leaders aren’t going to come harass you and write it up in a personal file. Apparently, god does that, probably a subset of Santa Clause’s list. Maybe Xenu, the thetans, or whatever, expects different things from their followers. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/109 "2009-06-19T14:12:51Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Well, there are lots of ‘other things’ that one can criticize about any religion, so let the critic that has no corruption in his own religion be the first to cast the first stone, I always say. And what you always say makes no sense. Take, for example, Christianity and Buddhism. In both faiths, the road to salvation/Nirvana is to live the apostolic life. Adherents try to live like Christ or like Buddha. If you have ever tried to do this yourself, it’s hard. Very hard. Some might say impossible. The only way to remove human “corruption” from religion would be if all of its adherents were able to be successful. This is not likely any time soon. Not being able to live up to one’s own ideals is essentially human and is by no means hypocrisy. I am also not responsible for the weakness and corruption in my coreligionists. If I were a Catholic, I would not lose the right to criticize the evils in other institutions just because a few priests molested children. I can criticise that, too. But this thread just happens to be about Scientology. There are plenty of others about Catholicism and child abuse. > [@](#): > > I am pretty grossed out by hypocrisy; in my self as well as in others. But I typically keep that disgust to myself in my day to day life. Now, on a message board that has an OP asking for opinions; I go ahead and make exceptions in those cases. I don’t even think you know what hypocrisy really means. You fired off a general broadside accusing everyone who dared criticize anything of hypocrisy. If you disgust meter is calibrated so finely, it is amazing you can ever leave the house in the morning. Are all of your beliefs perfectly consistent? > [@](#): > > But, I do wanna say, Maeglin, this lil’ exchange between us sure does seem to have taken on a personal tone. No, I do not think it has. I am pretty “grossed out” by unreason, illogic, and misuse of words with meanings that are well-agreed upon. I keep it to myself in my private life, but on a message board, I can highlight it if I wish. It’s nothing personal. > [@](#): > > I have no clue why you have indicated that I am directing my opinions at posters in this thread, but I was just making a general statement about why I think there is so much ire directed at COS. People in this thread have issues with CoS. You claim that people who have issues with CoS are essentially hypocrites. And you have no clue why I am concluding that you are talking about people in this thread? Go ahead, tell me another one. > [@](#): > > I have no clue what it is about my tone that I need to adjust for this board, but, uh…I’ll work on it. It’s not your tone. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/110 "2009-06-19T14:17:01Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Bolding mine. > This is the OP’s question. Part of the answer is to say that what the COS does isn’t any worse than what other’s do, don’t you think? > If someone says that A is bad because it does Y, then a counter is that B does Z, so it is just as bad if not worse. That directly answers the question. It then leads to the last part of the question of why Scientology is called on the carpet (eg. denied religion status, etc) while others carry on their merry way. At least that is how I perceive it. > > Another way that I look at it. You have two people. One is known as a person who helps others while the other is a right bastard. Both have been known to ruin peoples lives including killing them. Both continue to do so. Do you let the first guy off just because you like him and he’s popular, or do you stick both in jail? Sounds like this thread is **intended** to be an exercise in this: > **[Tu quoque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)** > > Tu quoque\[a\], literally "you, too", is a rhetorical technique that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by attacking the opponent's own personal behaviour and actions as being inconsistent with their argument, so that the opponent appears hypocritical. This specious reasoning is a special type of ad hominem attack. The Oxford English Dictionary cites John Cooke's 1614 stage play The Cittie Gallant as the earliest known use of the term in the English language. > The (fallacious) tu quoque ... ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/111 "2009-06-19T14:35:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Sounds like this thread is **intended** to be an exercise in this: > > [Tu quoque - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) No, I think it is more than that. This is a third party asking why people are fixated on P when A does essentially the same thing. The people doing the fixating may not be A or P. I think I was closer to a Tu Quoque when I made my original comment about other religions says the COS was crazier than they were. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/112 "2009-06-19T14:41:41Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > No, I think it is more than that. This is a third party asking why people are fixated on P when A does essentially the same thing. The people doing the fixating may not be A or P. I think I was closer to a Tu Quoque when I made my original comment about other religions says the COS was crazier than they were. This makes no sense. If it isn’t a _tu quoque_ because those responding are neither P nor A, isn’t it more likely to be a problem with the premise - that A and P are comparable and the “fixation” is thus irrational? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/113 "2009-06-19T14:52:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This makes no sense. If it isn’t a _tu quoque_ because those responding are neither P nor A, isn’t it more likely to be a problem with the premise - that A and P are comparable and the “fixation” is thus irrational? Maybe I’m missing something from your argument. But, the fixation is irrational, or more likely arbitrary, to pick one over the other when they are essentially the same. I guess it comes down to a person’s opinion as to which is worse, although millions of people affected vs. thousands pretty much resolves it for me. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/114 "2009-06-19T15:03:47Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Maybe I’m missing something from your argument. But, the fixation is irrational, or more likely arbitrary, to pick one over the other when they are essentially the same. I guess it comes down to a person’s opinion as to which is worse, although millions of people affected vs. thousands pretty much resolves it for me. I suspect that the part you are missing is this - that the millions directly affected by other religions in horribly detrimental ways tend to have been affected either really long ago (the Crusades, the Inquisition) or far away (Africans deprived of condom use). To the vast majority of first world type people, most established religions are basically harmless, if one excludes the more rabid and fundamentalist varieties - a mix of social club and community centre. Your average Catholic priest isn’t really up to leading any Albergensian crusades down Main Street, Springfield these days; your average Protestant isn’t reinacting the 30 years War, either. In contrast, many personally know people who have been intimately harmed by Scientology, which is also being plugged by celebrities. I have no idea what (if anything) Scientology is up to in the third world - they appear to be mostly targeting _us_, here and now. Why is it a big mistery that people will “fixate” on something that has the power to harm them or those they know and love, rather than something that doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/115 "2009-06-19T15:48:34Z")
Maeglin, I don’t care if posters in this thread believe that zombie oprah is coming back to lift all be true believers up to oprah heaven, I responded to the OP, which asked about why critics in general are so hard on COS while giving other bullshit a pass. So I answered what I felt. Glad it’s not my tone, because I gotta admit, I sure do dig my own tone. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/116 "2009-06-21T14:02:37Z")
Submitted for your approval: The first in a three day series of reports on Scientology by the St. Petersburg Times. A choice bit: > [@](#): > > Mayor Cazares raised questions about the new group inhabiting the Fort Harrison, calling it a cult and trading lawsuits with the church. The Times and the Clearwater Sun investigated. > > Scientologists followed Hubbard’s playbook and went after enemies. They tried to frame Cazares in a fake hit-and-run accident. They intercepted Times’ mail and falsely accused the paper’s chairman, Nelson Poynter, of being a CIA agent. The bit about the leader beating people up for fun, the DDOS on the IRS after Snow White… I can’t take samples without context there. > [@](#): > > After eight hours, when reporters readied to leave, church spokesman Tommy Davis brought in nine senior members of the management team. They stood shoulder to shoulder in front of the exit and insisted they be heard. They do try the same thing over and over again. > [@](#): > > Lyman Spurlock: “What they want to do is extort money from the church. … and right now the St. Pete Times is their extortion vehicle. … you’re just their lackeys. They’re using you.” > … > In 25 hours of meetings with reporters, the two church lawyers and two spokesmen extolled the accomplishments of David Miscavige and attacked the credibility of the defectors. There’s also some fun bits where they crack those mandatory confessions out and drop them on people. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/117 "2009-06-21T18:06:31Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Submitted for your approval: The first in a three day series of reports on Scientology by the St. Petersburg Times. > > A choice bit: > > The bit about the leader beating people up for fun, the DDOS on the IRS after Snow White… I can’t take samples without context there. > They do try the same thing over and over again. > > There’s also some fun bits where they crack those mandatory confessions out and drop them on people. Do you have a link for the entire series? ---
**Author:** ![Discipline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Discipline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discipline)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/118 "2009-06-21T18:24:01Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > Do you have a link for the entire series? [http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/](http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/119 "2009-06-22T01:53:56Z")
Er. Oops. That link _was_ in there. At one point. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979/120 "2009-06-22T22:23:36Z")
What’s the difference between a cult and a religion? A cult acquires the respectability of a religion when it’s been around for a hundred years, claims ten million adherents, maintains a hundred-million-dollar legal defense fund, or controls a billion dollars’ worth of church assets – whichever comes first. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-fixated-on-scientology/499979.md?page=5)