# Why are so many people pro-choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2001, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369 "2001-03-25T00:55:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/81 "2001-03-25T07:12:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alloran \* > \*\*My cousin Jeffrey did not have a brain. He died fifteen minutes after he was born. Are you willing to say that Jeffrey was not a person? \*\* I find it hard to believe that your cousin was born alive without a brain. If he had developed without a brain, he would have been a miscarriage long before the third trimester. I have a feeling you are either BSing or you are mistaken about your cousin’s condition. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/82 "2001-03-25T07:24:52Z")
Infants born with [anencephaly](http://www.ninds.nih.gov/health_and_medical/disorders/anencephaly_doc.htm) may have “a rudimentary brain stem” but they lack all of the higher brain areas. Reading the description of the disorder I’d have to say that, however tragic alloran’s aunt’s situation was, and however much sympathy we may feel for her, it seems clear to me that alloran’s cousin was never really a person. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/83 "2001-03-25T10:04:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alice\_in\_wonderland \* > \*\*Actually, it is Beehthoven. > > And this is a piece of Anti-abortion pap fit for a bumper sticker, not a debate board. \*\* According to [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/glurge/twoquest.htm), it’s not even correct. > [@](#): > > The Beethoven example is egregiously misleading. Beethoven was born well over two hundred years ago, in an era when the infant mortality was quite high by modern standards, and even infants who survived were often afflicted with serious health problems. Children didn’t die or experience physical problems so frequently back then simply because they were all born to mothers who were themselves in poor health, as is implied here. Offering an 18th century example in a 20th century setting is a very poor way of making a serious point. > > Also, Beethoven was not born to a woman who “had 8 kids already.” Although his mother, Maria Magdalena Laym (nee Kewerich) gave birth a total of eight times during her lifetime, Ludwig was only her third child. (Her first two children, one from a previous marriage, both died in infancy.) Only two of Beethoven’s five younger siblings survived beyond their first few years of their life. > > Even if we take this example at face value, it’s message is still problematic. If the woman in the example had been advised to abort her pregnancy based on the (mis)information supplied here, the world would never have known the magic of Beethoven’s music. But maybe a different woman who did opt to terminate her pregnancy might have spared the world another Stalin or Hitler. This is the sort of speculative “What if?” game that neither side can win, so it’s best not to play at all. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/84 "2001-03-25T15:23:28Z")
Protesilaus, I merely introduced the Beethoven story as a little aside thing. I was not trying to make an important point. Friedo, My cousin was delivered by C-section at 27 weeks’ gestation. Thus your point is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/85 "2001-03-25T15:30:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alloran \* > Friedo, > My cousin was delivered by C-section at 27 weeks’ gestation. Thus your point is invalid. That makes more sense then. I withdraw my accusation. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/86 "2001-03-25T15:40:01Z")
Mercutio, Never mind. I was thinking about a stereotype, and I was trying to make a joke. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/87 "2001-03-25T15:45:56Z")
MEBuckner, A single cell in a human body cannot naturally develop into another human being under any circumstances. Cloning is not a natural process. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/88 "2001-03-25T15:48:01Z")
How do you define what is or is not a natural process? Man is a part of nature. Man created cloning. Therefore, why is cloning not natural? ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/89 "2001-03-25T15:53:20Z")
Cloning is not a natural process because it is not done solely in an animal’s body. Cell division, or mitosis, does occur inside an animal’s body and is a natural process. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/90 "2001-03-25T16:01:34Z")
So, straykat23, it sounds as if what you’re saying is “Everyone knows me and no one knows the baby, so who cares about the baby?” I am sorry for your loss. In answer to your question: Much of my family, and, I’m sure, many others care about the baby. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/91 "2001-03-25T16:08:24Z")
Lsura, I would give love and support to that girl. Yes, I realize that she’s pregnant, but giving her an abortion is not the answer! If you do, she’ll remember what she did for the rest of her life(unless she has amnesia). ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/92 "2001-03-25T16:22:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alloran \* > \*\*Cloning is not a natural process because it is not done solely in an animal’s body. Cell division, or mitosis, does occur inside an animal’s body and is a natural process. \*\* So by your own definition, a test tube baby, where the egg is fertilized in a petri dish, and then when mitosis begins, is inserted into a woman, is not a natural process, therefore the baby is not a natural lifeform. ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/93 "2001-03-25T16:24:54Z")
alloran: > [@](#): > > I would give love and support to that girl. Yes, I realize that she’s pregnant, but giving her an abortion is not the answer! If you do, she’ll remember what she did for the rest of her life(unless she has amnesia). Which brings us back to those darned old statistics. If a woman is morally opposed to having an abortion, of course she should not have one. However, a woman who is not morally opposed to it will _not_ suffer distress if she chooses to have one. On the contrary, she will feel a great sense of relief. I think “that girl” is the one who is best able to judge whether or not abortion is the answer, _for her_. I wouldn’t presume to make the decision for her, and I wouldn’t withdraw my support if she made a decision contrary to my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/94 "2001-03-25T16:25:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alloran \* > **Why do so many people not understand that life is sacred, and that abortion is wrong?** Ahem…would this be called a hijack if I tried to steer the discussion closer to the OP? To me, the difference between a pro-lifer and a pro-choicer is not an absolute moral question, but one of degree. It would be a very extreme position if a pro-lifer NEVER killed a living thing. It would be equally extreme if a pro-choicer insisted on killing every thing that lived. “Living thing,” in a philosphical sense at least, covers viruses, bacteria, insects and plants at the small end of a complexity scale that terminates at homo sapiens. Killing is condoned, even encouraged, even required, by portions of society that consider “Thou shalt not kill” to be a God-given absolute commandment. I kill bugs with bug spray. I kill mice that get in my basement. I eat steaks and chicken. I don’t kill birds that come to my feeder and I don’t hunt deer in the fall. I felt uneasy being trained to kill people in the army (especially by the sergeant that went to church on Sunday), but I would pull the trigger without much thought if an adversary threatened me with murderous intent. This is just my level of comfort with an uncomfortable choice, and I find it difficult to condem others with slightly different levels. So, _killing_ is not the issue. _How, where and when **is.** _ With abortion, it all boils down to, “WHO should make the decision?” Should it be the government, the church, the doctor, or the person closest to and most likely to be affected by the situation, the pregnant or about-to-be-pregnant female? > [@](#): > > If someone killed a twenty-year-old, no one would say that that wasn’t murder! It’s either not murder or justifiable homicide under some circumstances, i.e., during war or self-defense. _The circumstances may make all the difference._ ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/95 "2001-03-25T16:25:57Z")
I meant that cloning is a process that must be done with equipment not available in an animal’s body. The process you have just outlined is not artficial. I apologize toanyone else who misunderstood me. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/96 "2001-03-25T16:30:03Z")
Some people say that an abortion is a choice between a woman and her doctor. There are two people they aren’t asking. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/97 "2001-03-25T16:33:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Holly \* > **However, a woman who is not morally opposed to it will not suffer distress if she chooses to have one. On the contrary, she will feel a great sense of relief.** WOULD YOU LIKE TO PROVE THAT? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/98 "2001-03-25T16:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by alloran \* > \*\*Some people say that an abortion is a choice between a woman and her doctor. There are two people they aren’t asking. \*\* **Alloran,** I don’t know what you mean. Are the woman and her doctor the “two people”? If not, who are they? ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/99 "2001-03-25T16:40:15Z")
Alloran, Go back to the cites that were posted by myself and by Lsura, and read them. It has been proven. ---
**Author:** ![alloran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@alloran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alloran)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2001, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369/100 "2001-03-25T16:42:58Z")
Here’s a cite: METHODS OF ABORTION SUCTION ABORTION; Also called vacuum aspiration, this is the most common abortion technique in use today. In this procedure a suction tube is inserted through the dilated cervix into the womb. A powerful vacuum tears the placenta from the uterus and dismembers the body of the developing child, sucking the pieces into an attached jar. There is a risk that the uterus can be punctured during the procedure. Also, the abortionist must take care that all the body parts are removed from the womb, as infection and hemorrhage can occur if fetal or placental tissue is left in the uterus. DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C): In a D&C abortion, usually performed between seven and twelve weeks of pregnancy, the doctor inserts a curette, a loop-shaped steel knife, into the womb through the dilated cervix. As the curette scrapes the wall of the uterus, the baby is cut into pieces. Bleeding can be considerable. As with a suction abortion, there is a risk of infection or hemorrhage, so the abortionist must reassemble the body parts to make sure the uterus is empty. DILATION AND EVACUATION (D&E): This method is similar to a D&C, except that forceps must be used to grasp the baby’s body because of the child’s advanced development. The baby is dismembered as the abortionist twists and tears the parts of the body and slices the placenta away from the uterus. Bleeding is profuse. Although relatively safe for the mother, the procedure is devastating to the hospital staff and many doctors refuse to do advanced D&E abortions. SALT POISONING (SALINE INJECTION): “Salting out” is the second most common method of inducing abortion and is usually used after sixteen weeks. The doctor inserts a long needle through the mother’s abdomen and injects a saline solution into the sac of amnionic fluid surrounding the baby. The baby is poisoned by swallowing the salt and his skin is completely burned away. It takes about an hour to kill the baby. After the child dies, the mother goes into labor and expels the dead baby. Saline injections have been outlawed in some countries because of the risks to the mother, which can include lung and kidney damage if the salt finds its way into her bloodstream. In spite of the horrible burning effect, some babies have survived “salting out” and been born alive. HYSTEROTOMY; Similar to the Cesarean section, the hysterotomy abortion is a surgical procedure whereby the baby is removed from the mother’s womb and allowed to die by neglect or killed by a direct act. This method offers the highest risk to the mother and produces the most number of live births. Hysterotomy is used only for late term pregnancies, and is sometimes used if the salt poisoning or prostaglandin abortion has failed. PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION; Prostaglandin is a chemical hormone which induces violent labor and premature birth when injected into the amnionic sac. Since prostaglandin results in an unusually high percentage of live births, salt, urea or another toxin is often injected first. The risk of live birth from a prostaglandin abortion is so great that its use is recommended only in hospitals with neonatal intensive care units. The risk to the mother is also greater with the use of prostaglandin; complications can include cardiac arrest. [http://www.pro-choice.com/pc3.htm](http://www.pro-choice.com/pc3.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-so-many-people-pro-choice/59369.md?page=6)