# Why are some american gold medlaists not saluting the flag during the anthem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 11, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489 "2016-08-11T21:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/41 "2016-08-12T04:26:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I can only wish that my life were so perfect and I had so much leisure time that I could give a flying fuck in a rolling donut hole about how someone does or does not behave during the national anthem. So many people think that freedom means others being free to do as they expect them to. Agreed. I feel the same way. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/42 "2016-08-12T04:29:55Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Unfortunately, no. Just one more reason I’m voting Trump this year. :mad: Just one more reason I’m not surprised whom you’re voting for. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![TYphoonSignal8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@TYphoonSignal8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TYphoonSignal8)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/43 "2016-08-12T04:34:25Z")
Small anecdote. I am an Australian. I was at a conference in Atlanta in 2004. One of the conference events was at a baseball game. Braves were playing someone, can’t remember which team. I was in a room talking earnestly with some people from South East Asia, mainly Singaporeans and Malaysians. It was a networking thing. They were getting very animated and laughing at the conversation. Vaguely in the background the US anthem starts playing, before the game as it does. Other people in the room, Americans, fell silent and stood to attention. Our conversation became louder. I glanced at an overhead TV and see a camera focussed on a man in the stadium, holding his son’s hand with his left hand and covering his heart with his right hand, singing the anthem. I thought, “Huh, how interesting, must be an ex-serviceman.” Then I started noticing the utterly filthy looks we were getting from the other occupants of the room. I told my colleagues to hush and to show respect o orthe US anthem. There were some confused looks and once person whispered, sotto voce, “Well, I’m not American.” But we all stopped talking and laughing. The dirty looks subsided. Once the anthem was over, noise resumed and we started talking again. But no one came near us for the rest of the night. I rarely hear the Australian anthem played except at my children’s school, and I have started standing for it recently because the other parents do. I wouldn’t remove a cap or hat if it started playing and certainly wouldn’t cover my heart. I think there is a gap there between a sense of Australian national identity and showing deference to the Australian anthem which I never considered until I got caught out that time in Atlanta. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/44 "2016-08-12T04:59:08Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Unfortunately, no. Just one more reason I’m voting Trump this year. :mad: For what it’s worth, I chuckled. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/45 "2016-08-12T09:45:22Z")
> [@TYphoonSignal8](#): > > Small anecdote. I am an Australian. I was at a conference in Atlanta in 2004. One of the conference events was at a baseball game. Braves were playing someone, can’t remember which team. > > I was in a room talking earnestly with some people from South East Asia, mainly Singaporeans and Malaysians. It was a networking thing. They were getting very animated and laughing at the conversation. Vaguely in the background the US anthem starts playing, before the game as it does. Other people in the room, Americans, fell silent and stood to attention. Our conversation became louder. I glanced at an overhead TV and see a camera focussed on a man in the stadium, holding his son’s hand with his left hand and covering his heart with his right hand, singing the anthem. I thought, “Huh, how interesting, must be an ex-serviceman.” > > Then I started noticing the utterly filthy looks we were getting from the other occupants of the room. I told my colleagues to hush and to show respect o orthe US anthem. There were some confused looks and once person whispered, sotto voce, “Well, I’m not American.” But we all stopped talking and laughing. The dirty looks subsided. Once the anthem was over, noise resumed and we started talking again. > > **But no one came near us for the rest of the night.** Well f\*\*k them, then. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/46 "2016-08-12T11:48:48Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > There’s no reason to _salute_ the flag during the national anthem, although it’s customary for military personnel to salute. There’s some reason to stand with your hand over your heart: > [@](#): > > 36 U.S. Code § 301 - National anthem > (a)Designation.— > The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem. > (b)Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem— > (1) when the flag is displayed— > (A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; > (B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and > (C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and > (2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed. Because there is no penalty for non-compliance, it’s certainly fair to say that no one is compelled to act thusly, but it’s hyperbole to say that no reason at all exists. It’s simply not a compelling reason. Or it may be that you are drawing a distinction between a military salute and the civilian hand-over-heart with that latter not constituting a “salute?” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/47 "2016-08-12T13:58:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Or it may be that you are drawing a distinction between a military salute and the civilian hand-over-heart with that latter not constituting a “salute?” It seems to be that way, given the emphasis on the word “salute,” (which is also a distinction I would make, as I wouldn’t call the hand-over-heart thing a “salute,” although I suppose it accomplishes the same thing that a salute would–just not how I think of a salute colloquially.) Out of curiosity, does the word “should” carry legal meaning there? I mean, I understand there’s no penalty associated with not saluting or anything, but I’m curious if, in general, the word “should” has legal meaning as opposed to “shall” or “must” or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![PlumBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@PlumBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlumBob)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/48 "2016-08-12T14:01:18Z")
> [@seal\_cleaner](#): > > I don’t remember the “hand over heart” thing happening when I was a kid (early 60’s) - that was for the Pledge of Allegience, not the national anthem. This is what i remember. (late 60’s) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/49 "2016-08-12T14:16:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Out of curiosity, does the word “should” carry legal meaning there? I mean, I understand there’s no penalty associated with not saluting or anything, but I’m curious if, in general, the word “should” has legal meaning as opposed to “shall” or “must” or whatever. I noticed the ‘should’ and ‘may’ also. Seems more like a suggestion than a rule. And we already know enforcing won’t hold up under the 1st amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/50 "2016-08-12T14:19:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There’s some reason to stand with your hand over your heart: > > Because there is no penalty for non-compliance, it’s certainly fair to say that no one is compelled to act thusly, but it’s hyperbole to say that no reason at all exists. It’s simply not a compelling reason. > > Or it may be that you are drawing a distinction between a military salute and the civilian hand-over-heart with that latter not constituting a “salute?” That’s one fucking law that needs to be repealed, penalty for non compliance or not. The government wants to tell me what I _should_ do when a particular song is played? Can they also make me do the stupid YMCA dance? ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/51 "2016-08-12T14:32:08Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > And I don’t take my hat off for GD God Bless America. Damn straight. When the hell did “God Bless America” becomes the country’s secondary anthem, anyway (I know, 9/11, but still …)? I’m beyond irritated at the PA announcer at ball games telling the crowd to “please rise, and remove your hats” for the singing of “God Bless America.” I’ll stand for our national anthem, thank you, don’t tell me what else I have to stand up for. Soon it’ll be “please rise for the singing of Rock and Roll Pt. 2, and remain standing for the performance of Seven Nation Army by the Pleasant Valley Middle School choir.” My family is aware of my ranting. They’re mostly tolerant. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/52 "2016-08-12T14:36:20Z")
At least it isn’t God Bless The U.S.A. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/53 "2016-08-12T14:37:00Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > There’s no reason to _salute_ the flag during the national anthem, although it’s customary for military personnel to salute. > > [This](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/national-anthem-etiquette-what-to-do-at-a-sporting-event-or-political-rally/) article is a couple of years old, but goes into the history of national anthem etiquette. > [@Bricker](#): > > There’s some reason to stand with your hand over your heart: > > Because there is no penalty for non-compliance, it’s certainly fair to say that no one is compelled to act thusly, but it’s hyperbole to say that no reason at all exists. It’s simply not a compelling reason. > > Or it may be that you are drawing a distinction between a military salute and the civilian hand-over-heart with that latter not constituting a “salute?” That is a relatively recent change. Military personnel were not allowed to salute out of uniform until that change. We always stood at attention and nothing else. I don’t know if the hand over the heart part changed then too. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/54 "2016-08-12T15:07:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > …does the word “should” carry legal meaning there? I mean, I understand there’s no penalty associated with not saluting or anything, but I’m curious if, in general, the word “should” has legal meaning as opposed to “shall” or “must” or whatever. So far as I am aware, it simply makes clearer that the statute’s dictates are aspirational and not mandatory. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/55 "2016-08-12T15:17:21Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > That is a relatively recent change. Military personnel were not allowed to salute out of uniform until that change. We always stood at attention and nothing else. I don’t know if the hand over the heart part changed then too. Prior to 2008, sub-paragraphs A-C read as follows: > [@](#): > > (A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart; > > “(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and > > “(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and… The most recent change prior to 2008 was from 1976, and that also contained similar language, although not broken out by paragraph. See [this page image.](http://uscode.house.gov/statviewer.htm?volume=90&page=812) Prior to 1976, the most recent amendment was in 1942. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/56 "2016-08-12T15:26:49Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That’s one fucking law that needs to be repealed, penalty for non compliance or not. The government wants to tell me what I _should_ do when a particular song is played? Can they also make me do the stupid YMCA dance? A law that compelled this speech (or expressive speech-like conduct) would be impermissible. But a law that _suggests_ without mandating? Sorry, can’t agree. They can’t make you do the dance, either, but then again you already knew they couldn’t make you do the salute when you asked about the dance, so I suspect you were trying to strengthen your rhetoric with an inapposite comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/57 "2016-08-12T15:29:41Z")
Again, the difference between what they can do and what they should do. The government should not be prescribing means for expressing patriotism or loyalty for the public, whether in the form of a suggestion or not. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/58 "2016-08-12T15:37:45Z")
The language of the law is poor. The government can establish reasonable voluntary protocols but the law should make the voluntary part clear. Or not have the law, other than the requirements for the military there’s no need for it. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/59 "2016-08-12T15:43:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A law that compelled this speech (or expressive speech-like conduct) would be impermissible. > > But a law that _suggests_ without mandating? Sorry, can’t agree. > > They can’t make you do the dance, either, but then again you already knew they couldn’t make you do the salute when you asked about the dance, so I suspect you were trying to strengthen your rhetoric with an inapposite comparison. Of course they can’t compel it. But they also shouldn’t.(to borrow a term) even suggest it. It’s not a proper role of govermpnment ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489/60 "2016-08-12T15:43:19Z")
What if you don’t have a right hand? Or a heart? Y’know… like Republicans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-american-gold-medlaists-not-saluting-the-flag-during-the-anthem/762489.md?page=4)