# Why are some congressman trying to kill THIS voucher program? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815 "2008-06-13T15:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/181 "2008-06-23T04:16:05Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] You want to try that in English rather than lolspeak? [/QUOTE] Whoops. Take: 1. My computer set to auto log onto the Dope. 2. My 5 year old and his ability to manipulate and enjoy things. Mix well, and get an interesting post. With apologies - and feel free to nuke it with your magic mod wand. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/182 "2008-06-23T04:28:11Z")
Actually, it appears to provide a good comment on much of this thread. I was just hoping for a translation. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2008, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/183 "2008-06-23T09:39:31Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Why do you think that “shitty educations” just occur in the public sector? Don’t you think that ignoring science is “shitty”? What on earth gives you the idea that religous teachings equates a good education ? [/QUOTE] Uh, have you heard of the Jesuits? They’re pretty big on book learnin’. And I think that your whole “ignoring science” is just bullshit. As far as I am aware most catholic schools, for instance, do teach science. They do teach the theory of evolution. If they share the catholic doctrine, too. what’s the big deal? In fact, if evolution is so strong a theory and everything else so lame, you should invite the comparison. Just look at Christopher Hitchens, a religious education didn’t brainwash him. This whole “don’t teach science” is just a big bugaboo. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/184 "2008-06-24T01:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Uh, have you heard of the Jesuits? They’re pretty big on book learnin’. And I think that your whole “ignoring science” is just bullshit. . [/QUOTE] Umm sure. Some faith based schools give a decent science education. So? Do you have any proof that “faith based= great education all the time” and “public= shitty education all the time”? I accept some private schools are better than some public schools- and the other way around. But if a public school tried to teach Creationism instead of Evolution, it’d be stopped- and rightfully so. However, private schools can and do teach that- not all of them, but enough. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/185 "2008-06-24T02:17:35Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Umm sure. Some faith based schools give a decent science education. So? Do you have any proof that “faith based= great education all the time” and “public= shitty education all the time”? I accept some private schools are better than some public schools- and the other way around. [/QUOTE] You’re the one who broad-brushed religious schools as “ignoring science”. You admit now that religious schools do not equal shitty science teaching. Good. I think we are in agreement also in that Charter schools are a good idea, as the only kids going to them will be ones taken out of a, by definition, shitty school. As far as the others, those public schools that do a good job—and there are many—why would a parent take a kid out of a good school? Unless to go to a better one? [QUOTE=DrDeth] But if a public school tried to teach Creationism instead of Evolution, it’d be stopped- and rightfully so. However, private schools can and do teach that- not all of them, but enough. [/QUOTE] I practice no religion, but I really have a hard time understanding the degree of animosity to teaching Creationism. Now, if that were taught to the exclusion of evolution, I could see a real concern. But is that actually the case? If it is, is it the case in more than a handful of schools. On the other hand, what’s the big deal if it is mentioned? Again, I would think the more fervently you believe evolution to be correct and Creationism to be false, the more you would invite a side-by-side comparison. Finally, if your kid was in a shitty school, and they gave you a voucher to send her to a good school, and the one that was by far the most convenient (and was an excellent school) taught evolution and creationism, would you send her there. If not, can you help me understand the absolute animosity to a religious instruction? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/186 "2008-06-24T03:00:34Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I practice no religion, but I really have a hard time understanding the degree of animosity to teaching Creationism. Now, if that were taught to the exclusion of evolution, I could see a real concern. But is that actually the case? If it is, is it the case in more than a handful of schools. On the other hand, what’s the big deal if it is mentioned? Again, I would think the more fervently you believe evolution to be correct and Creationism to be false, the more you would invite a side-by-side comparison. [/QUOTE] A side-by-side comparison, fine. That’s great. Bring on da truth! But what actually happens is that these proponents of creationism taught along with evolution want them taught as two equally probable belief systems that try to explain how life came about. Which they aren’t, any more than germ theory and bodily humours are equally probable belief systems that try to explain why people get sick. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/187 "2008-06-24T03:04:46Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] A side-by-side comparison, fine. That’s great. Bring on da truth! But what actually happens is that these proponents of creationism taught along with evolution want them taught as two equally probable belief systems that try to explain how life came about. Which they aren’t, any more than germ theory and bodily humours are equally probable belief systems that try to explain why people get sick. [/QUOTE] Oh, I agree. Still, I don’t get the animosity some people have. If they are taught side-by-side I think it becomes painfully obvious which theory is good for what and to what degree. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/188 "2008-06-24T14:54:01Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Umm sure. Some faith based schools give a decent science education. So? Do you have any proof that “faith based= great education all the time” and “public= shitty education all the time”? I accept some private schools are better than some public schools- and the other way around. [/QUOTE] I agree with you. Some private schools do a very bad job and some public schools do a great job. So, then, I’d assume you’d support giving parents the resource to make a decision about which schools to send their children. If a public school is doing a good job, it gets the voucher money. If a private school does a good job, it gets the voucher money. Those that do a poor job go away. When was the last time a shitty public school disappeared for lack of students? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/189 "2008-06-24T15:11:48Z")
It makes no difference: education is degraded because the “consumers” of it are coerced into purchasing the product. Forcing angry, disruptive children to sit in a classroom is doing NOTHING to solve the problem. What needs to happen: -evaluate each child, and decide upone the appropriate educational ‘track’ for him/her -set up carriculae for each track -handle the disruptive types with appropriate controls-and expell those who do not wish to participate Yeah, maybe it is un-democratic, but this is the only way to fix inner-city schools. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/190 "2008-06-25T01:35:49Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] You’re the one who broad-brushed religious schools as “ignoring science”. … As far as the others, those public schools that do a good job—and there are many—why would a parent take a kid out of a good school? Unless to go to a better one? I practice no religion, but I really have a hard time understanding the degree of animosity to teaching Creationism. Now, if that were taught to the exclusion of evolution, I could see a real concern. Finally, if your kid was in a shitty school, and they gave you a voucher to send her to a good school, and the one that was by far the most convenient (and was an excellent school) taught evolution and creationism, would you send her there. [/QUOTE] 1. No I did not “broad-brushed religious schools as “ignoring science””. Some do some don’t. The ones that do are shitty. 2. They take them out of a “godless” public school in order to make sure their beliefs can’t be questioned by facts. 3. Creationism is taught to the exclusion of Evolution. But Creationism is simply wrong and also Christian theology- why should it be taught with my tax dollars? 4. Any school that teaches Creationism is by definition a "shitty schooL’ thus your sitrep is impossible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/191 "2008-06-25T01:46:42Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] So, then, I’d assume you’d support giving parents the resource to make a decision about which schools to send their children. If a public school is doing a good job, it gets the voucher money. [/QUOTE] Nope. If a Public school is doing a bad job, _you vote the bastards out._ If \*your \*local Public school is doing a bad job, then it’s _your_ fault. Do you vote? How many letters have you written? School board meetings attended? Do you support a slate of board candidates who will fix things? Have you served on the County Civil Grand Jury for a year to investigate “waste, fraud and mismanagement”? Failing that, have you run for office yourself? The “shitty public school” is not run by “them”- it’s run by \*all of us. \* ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/192 "2008-06-25T01:55:37Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] 1. No I did not “broad-brushed religious schools as “ignoring science””. Some do some don’t. The ones that do are shitty. 2. They take them out of a “godless” public school in order to make sure their beliefs can’t be questioned by facts. 3. Creationism is taught to the exclusion of Evolution. But Creationism is simply wrong and also Christian theology- why should it be taught with my tax dollars? 4. Any school that teaches Creationism is by definition a "shitty schooL’ thus your sitrep is impossible. [/QUOTE] 5. Okay. I misunderstood you. My apologies. 6. How about those parents that send their kids to a religious school that is a different denomination than the one the belong to? Or are atheists? (I think there’s someone on this board, in fact.) How about my friends (Catholic) who sent their kid to a Jewish school? And now send their kid to a Chinese school? 3., 4. You’re evading the question. Are you saying that there are no schools that teach Creationism AND have students that score well on standardized tests/ Or are you using some other metric to judge “shitty”? Also, the question went to whether you wold send your kid to a religious school that had already demonstrated that is was not a shitty, but a fine, school. Would you rather have your kid get the best the known shitty school could offer? Or have an opportunity to learn more at the much better school, where she would also be exposed to Creationism. Again, this is a school proven to be excellent in which the students do well on all standardized tests, including those for science. (That’s my criteria for a good school.) ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/193 "2008-06-25T04:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Cite, please. There are a variety of private schools with a variety of different admissions criteria. Since the kids in the DC voucher program have no trouble finding private schools to take them, your assertion seems to fly in the face of actual experience. [/quote] Your experience perhaps. Not mine. > [@](#): > > I don’t have a kid, for instance. Please don’t lob balls so softly over the net in the future. Makes my smart-assedness harder to fight. > [@](#): > > So am I some sort of faux voucher fan? Was Milton Friedman, the man who thought up the idea of education vouchers, only looking out for his kids? Not at all. You’re both just wrong. > [@](#): > > Your tactic of questioning the motives of voucher proponents does nothing to address the merits or demerits of vouchers. Even if those supporting vouchers are motivated by self-interest, so what? Just because they want better education opportunities for their children does that mean they are evil? I don’t recall saying that they were evil. Just perpetrating a scam. Simply put, competition will not cure all ills. And as **DrDeth** so ably put it: [QUOTE=DrDeth] Nope. If a Public school is doing a bad job, _you vote the bastards out._ If \*your \*local Public school is doing a bad job, then it’s _your_ fault. Do you vote? How many letters have you written? School board meetings attended? Do you support a slate of board candidates who will fix things? Have you served on the County Civil Grand Jury for a year to investigate “waste, fraud and mismanagement”? Failing that, have you run for office yourself? The “shitty public school” is not run by “them”- it’s run by \*all of us. \* [/QUOTE] If you want things fixed, then you by god fix them. It is, after all, the American Way. And to attempt to use an end run around the problem of public schools, some of which I readily concede are failing at an alarming clip, by claiming that using per pupil spending to determine that parents can send their children to private schools with those dollars is disingenuous at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/194 "2008-06-25T04:11:23Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Let’s say you’re right, an a kid in a failing school will not gain admission to a top level private school (I don’t buy that, but let’s accept it as a hypothetical). Now just because a kid doesn’t get into a top tier school, does that mean he’s not getting the benefit of a better education? What if those vouchers go to kids who are currently in a failing school? Maybe the top tier private school might not take them, but maybe my new private school will? The important thing is to give kids an option to these schools that do an atrocious job by way of their students year after year. If you’re kid was scheduled to attend that school, would you rather keep him there or use a voucher to send him to my new school? [/quote] As I said previously, I would do my damnedest to improve the situation as it exists. Is your private school accredited by the state? If not, I’m certainly wary of sending my child there. Does your private school accept every kid who shows up on the first day? If not, why? > [@](#): > > Look at colleges. Just because a kid doesn’t get into an Ivy League school (money aside), that doesn’t mean he can’t still get a good education. Apples and oranges. Nobody (save parents on occasion) insists on higher education. Yet not only does society insist on children attending school, it’s actually the law. > [@](#): > > Well, how about if vouchers were restricted to the worst schools and given for charter schools. What if they were available to only those kids in schools where kids were getting shitty educations? Would that make them okay in your book? Charter schools already (mostly) get their funding through the same channels as public schools. So this is a non-starter, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/195 "2008-06-25T04:15:05Z")
The Washington Post editorial page came out today in favor of this program, saying in part: > [@Washington Post](#): > > AMONG THE most maddening arguments used against the D.C. school voucher program is that it hurts the public schools. Any money set aside for vouchers comes on top of a generous federal allocation for the city’s public and charter schools. Any effect of the vouchers on public education has yet to be established or studied. Most of all, which members of Congress would accept an argument that they should be forced to send their children to a failing school for the good of the school? > . > . > . > While Mr. Serrano voiced doubts about vouchers, he wisely deferred to the District’s leaders and their “right . . . to make these choices.” Members of the full committee, including a number of Washington area representatives who well understand the importance of D.C. home rule, should follow Mr. Serrano’s lead in abiding by the city’s intent. Joining Mr. Fenty in his support of the vouchers are leaders as disparate as D.C. Council Chairman Vincent C. Gray (D), council member Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) and former mayor Anthony A. Williams. Notwithstanding the objections of Del. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.), there is widespread local support for the vouchers. Indeed, demand is reflected in the number of children who are on waiting lists. Continuation of this very limited, local program hurts no one. But its elimination would profoundly affect poor and minority children. Is that a choice Congress really wants to make? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/196 "2008-06-25T04:46:51Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] As I said previously, I would do my damnedest to improve the situation as it exists. [/QUOTE] That’s just skirting the questions. What do you do while you’re trying to improve the system. People have been trying to improve it for decades. So all those kids just have to wait for you. Sorry, I’d rather have at least some kids getting a good education than you needing to feel good about some pipe dream of giving it to all kids. [QUOTE=GLWasteful] Is your private school accredited by the state? If not, I’m certainly wary of sending my child there. Does your private school accept every kid who shows up on the first day? If not, why? [/QUOTE] Oh, so now we need a school that’s immediately elastic. X kids show up; X kids get in? You’re evading the real issue again. [QUOTE=GLWasteful] Apples and oranges. Nobody (save parents on occasion) insists on higher education. Yet not only does society insist on children attending school, it’s actually the law. [/QUOTE] That’s a funny thing about analogies—they’re not identical. If they were, they wouldn’t be analogies. Of course you choose to look at the difference—which is immaterial as to why the analogy was brought up. You might find it easier to just state that you don’t want to answer the question. Or just not answer. The fact is that our higher education system is an envy of the world. Our public elementary, middle, and high schools? Failing way too many kids and neighborhoods. One improves due to competition, the other doesn’t. [QUOTE=GLWasteful] Charter schools already (mostly) get their funding through the same channels as public schools. So this is a non-starter, as well. [/QUOTE] Sheeze! You might want to have the stuff you type actually relate to what it is responding to. And did you miss the part about the money for the Charters NOT coming from the same fund? ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/197 "2008-06-25T13:50:49Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Nope. If a Public school is doing a bad job, _you vote the bastards out._ If \*your \*local Public school is doing a bad job, then it’s _your_ fault. Do you vote? How many letters have you written? School board meetings attended? Do you support a slate of board candidates who will fix things? Have you served on the County Civil Grand Jury for a year to investigate “waste, fraud and mismanagement”? Failing that, have you run for office yourself? The “shitty public school” is not run by “them”- it’s run by \*all of us. \* [/QUOTE] And how well has this approach worked in DC? And isn’t it simpler to just give parents money to send their kids to a better school? Why jump through all these hoops (that, given past experience, won’t work) when you can just simplify the process by allowing school choice. > [@GLWasteful](#): > > Your experience perhaps. Not mine. No, I’m talking about the experience of DC kids in the voucher program. You claimed that “most of those students who would be eligible to receive vouchers would never be allowed to get anywhere near a private school”, which flies in the face of what is actually happening in DC. > [@](#): > > Please don’t lob balls so softly over the net in the future. Makes my smart-assedness harder to fight. Again, you said this: “But I’ve yet to encounter an honest voucher fan who gives a damn about any kid save his or her own.” I know many voucher fans who don’t have kids or whose kids wouldn’t be eligible for vouchers. Questioning the motivation of voucher fans (which is what you were doing) is a very weak debating tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/198 "2008-06-25T18:07:50Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Nope. If a Public school is doing a bad job, _you vote the bastards out._ If \*your \*local Public school is doing a bad job, then it’s _your_ fault. Do you vote? How many letters have you written? School board meetings attended? Do you support a slate of board candidates who will fix things? Have you served on the County Civil Grand Jury for a year to investigate “waste, fraud and mismanagement”? Failing that, have you run for office yourself? The “shitty public school” is not run by “them”- it’s run by \*all of us. \* [/QUOTE] Sorry, but some school districts are too large, The teacher’s union is too powerful, and the parents are too poor (or working) to make an impact. This arguement is insulting to the working poor who want a real choice in their kid’s education, rather than being forced into the poorly run government solution. They are asking that a portion of the dollars that the state spends on their kids be instead allocated to the educational institution of their choice. Parents do NOT run the school - the school districts do their best to prevent that. Parents do NOT run the school board, since the board is elected of ALL voters in the district - not just the parents. My kids are in public schools. I have one member of the school board that I can call at home or on their cell. I am on a first name basis with the Principal of my older child’s school. It STILL takes 12-18 months for a change to be made, and this level of influence has cost me over $10k in donations and lost earnings. I can afford this, and I pay a higher mortgage to be in this district. However, I have also volunteered in the 'hood, and those parents are SCREWED. The game of pass-the-trash teachers has resulted in a large number of shit instructors with small islands of saints - all protected by the union and entrenched administrators. The cleanest option for those parents is to allow them to take their voucher grants to new schools. Anything else will be too late for their kids. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/199 "2008-06-27T02:28:07Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] That’s just skirting the questions. What do you do while you’re trying to improve the system. People have been trying to improve it for decades. So all those kids just have to wait for you. Sorry, I’d rather have at least some kids getting a good education than you needing to feel good about some pipe dream of giving it to all kids. [/quote] No. It isn’t. If there’s a problem you work to fix it rather than throw your hands up and run away. Or get self-righteous about what you’re pissing away your tax money on. I’m a member of my local school board (hell, for all the good it does me, I’m the freakin’ vice president) and I balance very keenly the desires of my constituents and the welfare of the students in my district. Y’wanna know a little secret? It can be an incredibly tough gig. But at the end of the day, you step up and try to find solutions to the issues at hand. Sometimes that involves establishing alternative schools for students who quite simply aren’t going to make it in a traditional school. Sometimes it involves kvetching and kvelling about the private schools (three that I can think of offhand) who poach our students. And sometimes it’s all about fixing what other people have screwed up and hoping against hope that we don’t screw something up ourselves. One thing that nobody does, though is piss and moan that we can’t fix it, so let’s just throw in the towel. I got involved in this delightful exchange of ideas because I actually have some experience with public schools as a graduate, father of a graduate-to-be (or so I continue to believe) and a school board member. The one thing that I never hear from a voucher advocate is, “Let’s fix the problem.” And that really sits wrong with me, because I strongly believe that public education is a very important part of society. What I hear instead is, “This group of students seems to be doing well,” (no evidence that they are) when they’re in a setting that cherry picks them to be successful. Which is absolute crap. > [@](#): > > Oh, so now we need a school that’s immediately elastic. X kids show up; X kids get in? You’re evading the real issue again. Or, y’know, a school that actually serves the population. And it’s not evading the issue to ask you: Is your hypothetical school accredited by the state? Or will it accept every student who shows up? Because if it isn’t or it won’t, then I have a lot of issues with you taking tax dollars to support your little fantasy land. [quote] That’s a funny thing about analogies—they’re not identical. If they were, they wouldn’t be analogies. Of course you choose to look at the difference—which is immaterial as to why the analogy was brought up. You might find it easier to just state that you don’t want to answer the question. Or just not answer. [quote] Or all that terribly analogous when you posit the ridiculous crap that you do. Unless and until higher education is mandated by law, then you’re comparing apples and oranges. See, the reason I chose to see the difference is because the difference is the defining essence of what you posted. > [@](#): > > The fact is that our higher education system is an envy of the world. Our public elementary, middle, and high schools? Failing way too many kids and neighborhoods. One improves due to competition, the other doesn’t. Some public schools do suck. I won’t argue that point. But to claim that they suck because there’s no competition is ridiculous. There are an awful lot of colleges that fail pretty miserably at churning out an educated populace. And they **are** the competition. > [@](#): > > . . .did you miss the part about the money for the Charters NOT coming from the same fund? Initially, yes. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/200 "2008-06-27T02:41:40Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] No, I’m talking about the experience of DC kids in the voucher program. You claimed that “most of those students who would be eligible to receive vouchers would never be allowed to get anywhere near a private school”, which flies in the face of what is actually happening in DC. [/quote] And I was taking a more macro view of private schools. So it appears we were talking at cross purposes. Of course, those selfsame private schools would, I imagine, tell me to get bent if I were to take my daughter in and attempt to enroll her. If I’m wrong, I will cheerfully concede the same. > [@](#): > > Again, you said this: “But I’ve yet to encounter an honest voucher fan who gives a damn about any kid save his or her own.” I know many voucher fans who don’t have kids or whose kids wouldn’t be eligible for vouchers. Questioning the motivation of voucher fans (which is what you were doing) is a very weak debating tactic. You completely overlooked my point. The cross we subtle people bear! Alack! Alas! (insert sound of wailing and gnashing of teeth here. Or don’t, your call) I also know many voucher fans. And once they’ve finished their spiel about public schools sucking ass and how they feel it’s only right that parents get to choose to spend their tax dollars where and how they see fit, they will either tell you that it’s their own kids that they’re concerned about and/or their own tax dollars that they don’t want to see subsidize schools. And some schools do suck ass. Most don’t. And I’ve also never met a voucher fan who feels that those parents should get one penny less than the average that each child uses. Despite the fact that using average numbers rather than actual numbers is grossly disingenuous. I’m not questioning their motives, I’m parroting them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815.md?page=11)