# Why are some congressman trying to kill THIS voucher program? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815 "2008-06-13T15:39:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/21 "2008-06-13T16:56:59Z")
Here is a question for all of the voucherites. Suppose I agree with you that the school systems are failing our kids. What happens to those students that cannot get vouchers? Do they need to stay in the failing schools? How do you justify _some_ of the students getting out of the system but not all? ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/22 "2008-06-13T17:14:52Z")
[Here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/08/AR2008060802041.html) is a better article on the D.C. Voucher program. I wonder though, how many of the good DC private schools would the $7,500.00 cover. I notice that [Gonzaga](http://www.gonzaga.org/admissions/new_site/tuition__fees.htm) costs $13,500.00 per year. [Archbishop Carroll](http://www.archbishopcarroll.org) is about $8,500.00 per year. [Here](http://www.adw.org/education/edu.asp?region=5#5) is the list for the high schools. Granted, from what I’ve seen they don’t have the decaying buildings that the DC Public Schools have and they can fire ineffective teachers. > [@](#): > > The problem with the idea of vouchers is that it portends a possible future where most education will be private and the public schools will languish or be abolished entirely – and then we would have an educational system resembling our current health-care system, with what you get being based on your ability to pay and the poorest getting nothing or next to nothing. Public schools might remain open but so far reduced (even from their current state) that attending one would be the functional equivalent of going to the ER for your medical needs. I hope nobody seriously wants that! In effect, that is what happens in the District. A few of my neighbors whose children have approached school age have sold their homes in the District and moved to the suburbs. Some other people have sent their children to private schools. Those with means either leave the City or send their kids to private school. For the most part, the students in the DC public schools are the ones whose parents can’t afford to send them elsewhere. [Here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2007/10/05/GA2007100501743.html) are the pictures from a Post article on Cardozo High School. (Warning! a 15 second commercial plays before the picture slide show can be viewed). I would not send my children to a DC public school. I drive by an elementary school on my way to work and from the outside the building doesn’t look well maintained. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/23 "2008-06-13T17:34:46Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] If the public schools can’t offer a good education, whey should they remain open? And if kids were getting vouchers to attend the school of their choice, I can’t see how your dystopian future could happen. The kids (poor, rich, middle class) would attend private schools that cater to their needs or desires. Yes, the rich would be better off, but they are better off now. How would the poor get “next to nothing” if they have a voucher to spend at a private school? [/QUOTE] That’s why I said “portends a possible future” – it’s a thin-end-of-the-wedge problem; if we’re going to devote public resources to alternatives to public education instead of to fixing its problems, public education might languish to a degree that undermines the social-contract consensus of devoting public resources to education **at all.** Also, what **Saint Cad** said. And what **Caffeine.addict** said. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/24 "2008-06-13T17:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It’s not ok to give taxpayer money to religious schools. [/quote] [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t care what the Supreme Court says. School vouchers are a scam to funnel public money to religious schools and everybody knows it. It’s inappropriate and socially destructive (and I say that as someone who sends my kids to a Catholic school). [/QUOTE] I am a little unclear. Are you saying that it is unconstitutional or just inappropriate and socially destructive in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/25 "2008-06-13T17:48:07Z")
Throughout history, competition has been a positive force-it lowers costs and improves quality. In places (like Stalinist Russia) where competition was outlawed, the quality was bad and the prices were high. Why is education any different? Vouchers would force the DC public schools to compete. That would be a good thing. but the bureaucracy that “runs” (into the ground!) the DC school system doesn’t want this-it wants MORE taxpayer money, so it can hire MORE superintendents, consultants, etc. all in all, a proven record of incompetence! So, sure, throw more money at the DC schools-just don’t be surprised at the results! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/26 "2008-06-13T18:00:40Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Throughout history, competition has been a positive force-it lowers costs and improves quality. In places (like Stalinist Russia) where competition was outlawed, the quality was bad and the prices were high. Why is education any different? Vouchers would force the DC public schools to compete. That would be a good thing. but the bureaucracy that “runs” (into the ground!) the DC school system doesn’t want this-it wants MORE taxpayer money, so it can hire MORE superintendents, consultants, etc. all in all, a proven record of incompetence! So, sure, throw more money at the DC schools-just don’t be surprised at the results! [/QUOTE] Competition as a positive force relies on the idea that it is the least costly and highest quality products that sell the most. In the case of education as the product, certainly private schools may offer a higher quality of education (though I have reservations about how that quality is judged), but it bypasses the costliness issue. On top of that, for competition to inspire others to do better requires that the others are motivated to be better by it, usually by profit - what about the existence of good private schools motivates public schools to do better? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/27 "2008-06-13T18:00:59Z")
I went to a private grade school. I had to take a test to get in. I’m convinced that part of the appeal for my parents was that the price kept out the riffraff. (My grade school tuition was higher than my college tuition!) In a voucher system, what would stop the private schools from raising their prices by the exact amount of the voucher? If they were charging 15 grand a year, and the government starts giving out $7500 vouchers, they would just raise their price to $22,500. The people who were already there continue to pay their 15 grand plus hand over the voucher, the riffraff are still priced out, and $7,500 that used to go to the public school now goes to the private school. Also, what happens to the kid who can’t pass the test to get into private school? He’s stuck now in a public system that is much poorer because of the loss of voucher money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/28 "2008-06-13T18:06:47Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] **Why Is Competition “bad”?** [/QUOTE] It’s not, but there are areas where the bad of free-market competition outweighs the good, as in our current health-care system. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/29 "2008-06-13T18:12:46Z")
There was once a _West Wing_ episode on exactly this question. Democrats rely upon teachers’ unions for political support, and are generally committed to the concept of public schools and opposed to vouchers, believing that they weaken public schools and may violate the First Amendment’s Establishment Clause. Republicans suspect all public school teachers are Democrats and are generally committed to the concept of competition as a means of making public schools better, even if it sometimes doesn’t work. Around and around we go. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/30 "2008-06-13T18:33:18Z")
How about we allow vouchers when the private schools HAVE to take anyone who applies to them, instead of being able to pick and choose their students like they do now? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/31 "2008-06-13T18:55:08Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Competition as a positive force relies on the idea that it is the least costly and highest quality products that sell the most. In the case of education as the product, certainly private schools may offer a higher quality of education (though I have reservations about how that quality is judged), but it bypasses the costliness issue. On top of that, for competition to inspire others to do better requires that the others are motivated to be better by it, usually by profit - what about the existence of good private schools motivates public schools to do better? [/QUOTE] The market 9in education) is distorted, because the consumers are coerced into consuming the product. That is why (partly) the public schools are so dangerous-they are forced to take violent, unwilling students. In many cases, public schools are merely holding pens-they make no pretense at education. So, yes, competition works, but only if the product is not subject to coerced consumption. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/32 "2008-06-13T19:01:31Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] The market 9in education) is distorted, because the consumers are coerced into consuming the product. That is why (partly) the public schools are so dangerous-they are forced to take violent, unwilling students. In many cases, public schools are merely holding pens-they make no pretense at education. So, yes, competition works, but only if the product is not subject to coerced consumption. [/QUOTE] Private schools have to take those kids too, at least until they figure out they’re violent and unwilling - and then of course the money is down the drain. Besides, aiding private schools adds to this problem, not alleviates it. Vouchers mean that the idea of public schools as a dumping grounds is just going to spread; it’s saying “they make no pretense at education” and choosing to accept it and work around them, rather than try to improve. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/33 "2008-06-13T19:03:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That’s why I said “portends a possible future” – it’s a thin-end-of-the-wedge problem; if we’re going to devote public resources to alternatives to public education instead of to fixing its problems, public education might languish to a degree that undermines the social-contract consensus of devoting public resources to education **at all.** Also, what **Saint Cad** said. And what **Caffeine.addict** said. [/QUOTE] Not so fast, I’m not sure that you want to agree with me. The problems affecting the DC Public schools have been around for a long time. I don’t think that the voucher program has been the cause of it. Years of neglect, and other systemic issues have led to this. The voucher program only covers 2000 students. The Public school system has approximately 58,000 students. I’m not sure how many are in Charter Schools. [This article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101202350.html) from November states that the DC Chancellor wanted the power to fire ineffective teachers. Bad teachers were just shuffled around. The DC School system also has too many buildings. The reason that these voucher programs came about was due to the poor states of the DC school system to begin with. Frankly with all the scandals in DC and the track record that the District has managing projects, I don’t think that the 18 million would make it to the students. I think that this [article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/08/AR2007110802497_pf.html) paints an accurate picture of what happens with money in the DC School system. If anything, I think that vouchers or a tax credit for parents who want to opt out of the DC school system would be a benefit and might actually begin the formation of a middle class with children in the District. I fear that in the next five years I’ll have to move out into the suburbs despite generally liking my life in the District for much of the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/34 "2008-06-13T19:05:55Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I am a little unclear. Are you saying that it is unconstitutional or just inappropriate and socially destructive in your opinion? [/QUOTE] It’s both in MY opinion, but I’m not on the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/35 "2008-06-13T19:06:56Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Throughout history, competition has been a positive force-it lowers costs and improves quality. In places (like Stalinist Russia) where competition was outlawed, the quality was bad and the prices were high. Why is education any different? Vouchers would force the DC public schools to compete. That would be a good thing. but the bureaucracy that “runs” (into the ground!) the DC school system doesn’t want this-it wants MORE taxpayer money, so it can hire MORE superintendents, consultants, etc. all in all, a proven record of incompetence! So, sure, throw more money at the DC schools-just don’t be surprised at the results! [/QUOTE] Education is a right, not a product. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/36 "2008-06-13T19:09:55Z")
A lot of the anti-voucher sentiment is based on the proposition that vouchers detract from efforts to “fix” the public schools. How are these schools fixed, then? Everyone seems to think there is some easy way to solve the problem and that people want vouchers instead of doing that. I’d actually like to see some evidence to back that up. It seems to me that parents (especially in DC) have heard about trying to fix these schools for so long and have seen no results from these plans that they leap at the chance to get out of them. Why, in the face of increasingly worse public schools where no attempts to fix them work, should parents be forced to send their kids there? [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] It’s not, but there are areas where the bad of free-market competition outweighs the good, as in our current health-care system. [/QUOTE] And what type of free market competition do we have in our health care system? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/37 "2008-06-13T19:12:21Z")
Incidentally, how is that “competition” thing working out for gas prices? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/38 "2008-06-13T19:14:16Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] And what type of free market competition do we have in our health care system? [/QUOTE] That between insurance companies – but it’s an illusion; the health-insurance industry is as cartelized as the petroleum industry, and **not** because of any government policy. Some economic sectors simply lend themselves to natural oligopoly, and those are the ones government should step in and run as public utilities. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/39 "2008-06-13T19:19:49Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Education is a right, not a product. [/QUOTE] Question: Do you see a constitutional issue when a student is given a Pell grant and uses that money to fund education at Notre Dame, Baylor or Brigham Young? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815/40 "2008-06-13T19:20:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Question: Do you see a constitutional issue when a student is given a Pell grant and uses that money to fund education at Notre Dame, Baylor or Brigham Young? [/QUOTE] Yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-congressman-trying-to-kill-this-voucher-program/452815.md?page=3)