# Why are some people against same sex marriage ? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 4, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499 "2004-03-04T13:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/61 "2004-03-07T20:02:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I would say to look up the word in the dictionary - the meaning is defined for us and I don’t understand why you wish me to accept your definition just because you say that my dictionary is wrong. I find it insulting for you to ask me to justify the meaning in the dictionary but I will try, though the burden is still yours. Ah, so it’s dictionaries at 20 paces, is it? OK, well, here’s one [dictionary](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=marriage&x=17&y=18): > [@](#): > > (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage and here’s [another](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=marriage): > [@](#): > > A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage and if you don’t like those dictionaries, we’ll turn to something that a little more [authoritative](http://www.msnbc.com/news/995055.asp): > [@](#): > > We construe civil marriage to mean the voluntary union of two persons as spouses, to the exclusion of all others. I leave it to a more enterprising Doper to post the appropriate definitions from the dictionaries of the Netherlands and Belgium. > [@](#): > > I am asking what is the dynamics of a homosexual relationship? Does one partner actually take the role of the opposite gender? There are as many types of homosexual relationships as there are homosexual relationships. What has the roles that one partner or another to do with extending the legal protection of marriage to those couples? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/62 "2004-03-07T20:10:11Z")
They claim its because its a sin. Then one is legitimizing sin. I don’t know why they aren’t going after adulterers and theifs and such. Guess they don’t have a huge all-powerful lobby! Of course, marriage isn’t a sin, so they are left with the “unnatural” argument. Well, I think its unnatural to wake up at 5 a.m.and go to work out but my neighbor does it and it doesn’t hurt me at all. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/63 "2004-03-07T21:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > The stereotype of husband=dominant and wife=submissive (even in a benign sense) is true of some marriages, Actually this was not what I was getting at at all, I see you did not read the book I mentioned. It has to do with differieng underlying phycology between women and men. > [@](#): > > My point is that definitions change, and it’s time for the definition of “marriage” to change again. You haven’t given the reason why. Who are you to change the definition. Thanks **jehovah68** for the definition, from what I see in many defintions is that any mention of SSM has the word ‘same sex’ in context of marriage, creating a phrase, which marriage is a word in it, and I would say that phrase is the actual word. And also my dictionary does not even have the word electricity, nor gunpowder in it, but marriage is there, and that is part of the point, the word is taken a long time ago. > [@](#): > > What has the roles that one partner or another to do with extending the legal protection of marriage to those couples? HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING I HAVE WROTE!!! (see the steam comming out of my ears) I am for giving such civil unions ALL rights of married. > [@](#): > > Of course, marriage isn’t a sin, so they are left with the “unnatural” argument. > Well, I think its unnatural to wake up at 5 a.m.and go to work out but my neighbor does it and it doesn’t hurt me at all. And we don’t call that a marriage either, wait a minute, lets redefine marriage to include neighbors who wake up at 5 am and go to work. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/64 "2004-03-07T22:00:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually this was not what I was getting at at all, I see you did not read the book I mentioned. It has to do with differieng underlying phycology between women and men. I have, actually. And my candid opinion of it is not suitable to print in this forum. Let’s just say that I find it lacking in intellectual rigor. I certainly wouldn’t use it as a basis for legislation (actually, I wouldn’t use it to wipe my…never mind). > [@](#): > > You haven’t given the reason why. Who are you to change the definition. Remember that dictionary definitions reflect current common usage, and change all on their own regularly (and with increasing rapidity) as the common use changes. > [@](#): > > And also my dictionary does not even have the word electricity, nor gunpowder in it, but marriage is there, and that is part of the point, the word is taken a long time ago. You should look up “nice” some time. > [@](#): > > And we don’t call that a marriage either, wait a minute, lets redefine marriage to include neighbors who wake up at 5 am and go to work. In the unlikely event that that becomes the common usage, you would certainly eventually see it in the new dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/65 "2004-03-07T22:32:43Z")
I underestimated you **Gyrate** , though I did say the books conclusions were not universially accepted. > [@](#): > > Remember that dictionary definitions reflect current common usage, and change all on their own regularly (and with increasing rapidity) as the common use changes. What is the method of such change and when is it appropiate? > [@](#): > > You should look up “nice” some time. Nice [proper noun] a city controlled by the Franks. Really are you honsestly saying we should change a definition of the word marriage to be nice to homosexual people? ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/66 "2004-03-07T22:54:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually this was not what I was getting at at all, I see you did not read the book I mentioned. It has to do with differieng underlying phycology between women and men. However, this underlying psychology is not the same for _all_ women, nor for _all_ men. Does this mean that individuals who don’t fit this psychological mold can’t get married? > [@](#): > > You haven’t given the reason why. Who are you to change the definition. The reason why is (to me) obvious. Gays who want to marry have a relationship that is equivalent to traditional marriage in all ways except for the sexes of the parties involved. The question you should be asking is not “Why should we change the definition of marriage?”, but “Why are the sexes of the parties involved important to the definition of marriage in the first place?” The answer is, of course, “tradition”. So, is upholding tradition more important than giving a minority group equal rights? And I know you’re going to say that you’re all for giving them equal right with different terminology. But the problem with that is their relationships will _never_ be treated the same by society as long as they’re stuck with a different name for it. > [@](#): > > Thanks **jehovah68** for the definition, from what I see in many defintions is that any mention of SSM has the word ‘same sex’ in context of marriage, creating a phrase, which marriage is a word in it, and I would say that phrase is the actual word. By that line of reasoning, “interracial marriage” isn’t marriage, but a phrase that just happens to have the word ‘marriage’ in it. > [@](#): > > And also my dictionary does not even have the word electricity, nor gunpowder in it, but marriage is there, and that is part of the point, the word is taken a long time ago. And a long time ago that word meant a union between a man and a woman of the same race as ordained by God. The current concept of marriage obviously does not correspond completely with what the word originally meant. ---
**Author:** ![peri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/67e7ee/32.png) [@peri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peri)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/67 "2004-03-07T23:48:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I am asking what is the dynamics of a homosexual relationship? Does one partner actually take the role of the opposite gender? I’m not talking about Adam goes to work, brings home a check, while Steve stays home and takes care of the house and does the laundry (but it would be interesting to see if that happens). But more on a physiological level does one partner take on the role of the opposite gender. Can someone provide a link to something along these lines? Since you feel no one else has understood this query, I wonder: Are you asking if one partner is always the f_cker and the other always the f_ckee? Frankly, that’s what I thought upon first reading your post. I’ll reserve further comment until this is clarified. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/68 "2004-03-08T00:18:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Really are you honsestly saying we should change a definition of the word marriage to be nice to homosexual people? I think what he’s saying is that we shouldn’t run our society by the decree of Webster’s Dictionary. (What would that be? “Bibliocracy”?) And who’s to say that we can’t _change or add_ to our language if we want? I mean, Oxford added “Muggle” to the dictionary last year, and the word was invented in 1996. Or even the word “Gay”…after all, back in 1905, it just meant “happy.” ---
**Author:** ![quiltguy154](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ad7895/32.png) [@quiltguy154](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy154)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/69 "2004-03-08T00:55:45Z")
I believe **Gyrate** is alluding to the fact that the word nice was not always a compliment. At one time it meant _ignorant_, from the Latin words for not and knowing. Some words DO evolve in meaning, sometimes it’s just a lateral, other times it could be a step up, or down. Same with the word _gossip_. It all goes to show that as our world changes, so must the terms we use to describe our world. You can’t pull a Canute, to try and keep it from happening. As an aside, I presume rule by dictionary would be called _lexicogracy_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/70 "2004-03-08T02:36:08Z")
> [@](#): > > 3 : an intimate or close union \ I try to be open-minded, but this is too much…painting and poetry were never meant to marry…darnit, it’s time to make a stand. I’m voting for Roy Moore. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/71 "2004-03-08T05:00:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Really are you honsestly saying we should change a definition of the word marriage to be nice to homosexual people? Good enough for me. Nothing wrong with being nice. Not that there aren’t excellent civil rights reasons to make the change. ---
**Author:** ![Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/72 "2004-03-08T05:17:29Z")
Gay marriage is marriage. [It just is.](http://www.vs.gov.bc.ca/marriage/howto.html) And a [big ole cite.](http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/ca/03/04/2003bcca0406.htm) (Just doing my bit to promote tourism to my homeland 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/73 "2004-03-09T19:43:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I underestimated you **Gyrate** , though I did say the books conclusions were not universially accepted. Actually I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve read it. It really is meretricious rubbish. > [@](#): > > What is the method of such change and when is it appropiate? Linguistic change is never (or almost never) deliberate; it simply happens through common misuse, adaptation of a word in use to a new use and general semantic drift. A “quantum leap” has come to mean a very large and sudden leap, yet originally meant (and still does in its original context) a very, very small one. Meanings sometimes change quite a lot. > [@](#): > > Nice [proper noun] a city controlled by the Franks. Er, yes. Also \*exact, subtle, stupid, \*or _wanton_. > [@](#): > > Really are you honsestly saying we should change a definition of the word marriage to be nice to homosexual people? To be nice, no. To be just, yes. And that’s giving you the benefit of the doubt as to its current proscriptive status. My point, as others have picked up on, is that it makes no sense to say (as some have done) that since the dictionary definition specifies a union of people of the opposite sex that it must _always_ mean that. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/74 "2004-03-09T20:01:37Z")
\> I have not read this thread since my last post (and not as I type thie \> either). I am sure you all had some very sweet and nice support for my \> position since I last posted. But something that was posted before \> helped me relize why I am opposed. It is my opinion. \> \> The post, or word that helped me realize was the word **nice** , which \> I am sure was to mean to be nice to homosexual couples and ‘let them \> have it’ so to speak. \> \> But as most things there are 2 sides. I want to be nice to people who \> wish to keep marriage as a union between woman and man ordained by God. \> \> Most marriage laws have contrubuted to marriage loosing much of it’s \> luster, such as no fault devorce, and Britney Spears 24 hour marriage - \> but these items just allow people to do immoral things, but OTHO it \> allows people to get the gov’t out of their way and handle things on \> their own. \> \> But the issue of SSM is by default is in many peoples books immoral, \> there is no way around it. It would be if not the 1st, would certainlly \> be the strongest slap in the face to those who hold marriage to be \> ‘bigger’ then just man(kind). \> \> So many morals are attacked daily, I think it would be **nice** to \> reserve the term marriage as a moral f-m union. \> \> Again my opinon, and again I still would be interested in any links as \> to the dynamics between SS couples compaired to F-M couples. \> \> Again I haven’t kept up with this thread since my lasat post, and \> composing this off line. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/75 "2004-03-09T20:21:38Z")
I’m a het female and I’m at a total loss to understand the “dynamics” between M-F married couples, at least the ones I know. I have no interest in getting married, and I’ve seen some actions that I would describe as immoral in the name of marriage. However, _it’s none of my business_ what the dynamics between any couple are or what religious beliefs, if any, contribute to their relationship. It’s enough to know that they have made a commitment to each other in full knowledge of the social and legal rights and responsibilities attendant to that commitment. Just because I look at the two of them together and shake my head is no reason for anyone to deny them those rights and responsibilities. And I’m with **Gyrate** on the meretricious rubbish (perfect description, that). ---
**Author:** ![Stephi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Stephi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/76 "2004-03-09T22:16:38Z")
First of all, I’m a hetero female, and I’m for same sex marriage. This is why. To me marriage is simply a **legal contract** between two people and the state. It’s not sacred to me at all. You don’t abridge someone’s right to enter into a legal contract without a darn good reason. The only ones I can think of are immaturity, or mental disease. For instance, legal minors cannot enter into any legal contract, I assume because they usually don’t have the capacity to negotiate properly. (You know, they’re kids.) So it seems to me, that denying two people (who are capable of entering a legal contract) the right to enter into that contract simply because of the sexual orientation of the two people is wrong. I hope I explained myself sufficiently. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/77 "2004-03-12T00:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you asking if one partner is always the f_cker and the other always the f_ckee? Frankly, that’s what I thought upon first reading your post. I’ll reserve further comment until this is clarified. To answer this one, you have it absolutly wrong, and if you don’t mind me asking Where the F— did you get this cr-- from??? I think this type of reply reflects on your views - certainly not mine. It has to go into the fundemental non-sexual differences between f and m. I don’t care to go into it as I won the point that f and m different beyond a simple plumbing difference. Anyway I heard what you (the rest of you) said, I disagree with you. I am ready to leave it there. ---
**Author:** ![peri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/67e7ee/32.png) [@peri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peri)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/78 "2004-03-12T01:22:54Z")
> [@me](#): > > Are you asking if one partner is always the f_cker and the other always the f_ckee? Frankly, that’s what I thought upon first reading your post. I’ll reserve further comment until this is clarified. > [@kanicbird](#): > > To answer this one, you have it absolutly wrong, and if you don’t mind me asking Where the F— did you get this cr-- from??? I got it from the bold sections here: > [@kanicbird](#): > > I am asking what is the dynamics of a homosexual relationship? **Does one partner actually take the role of the opposite gender?** I’m not talking about Adam goes to work, brings home a check, while Steve stays home and takes care of the house and does the laundry (but it would be interesting to see if that happens). **But more on a physiological level does one partner take on the role of the opposite gender.** Can someone provide a link to something along these lines? You stated no one else understood what you were asking. Did you mean _psychology_ instead of physiology? Others were addressing that issue and you were dismissive of them all. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/79 "2004-03-12T12:47:00Z")
**peri** > [@](#): > > Did you mean psychology instead of physiology? Yes, sorry for that, I can now see how you got to where you did. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![nisosbar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@nisosbar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nisosbar)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499/80 "2004-03-12T13:06:32Z")
This “plumbing” argument - it’s a new way of repeating Jerry Falwell’s, “God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” Ergo, you are dealing with Christian fundamentalists. Ergo, don’t waste your time with them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-against-same-sex-marriage/232499.md?page=5)