# Why are some people enjoying the possible break up of the UK? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820 "2014-04-10T20:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/301 "2014-05-01T21:33:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Agreed. But knowledge of this and a sharing of that sentiment leaves Scotland with an anti-colonial feel, even though it was never a colony. > > Edward I, The Hammer of the Scots, Braveheart, and so on loom large in popular belief- think flower of Scotland. History ,as written by Hollywood, never let historical facts get in the way of a good yarn. The Norman French were the bad guys, not the English. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/302 "2014-05-01T21:38:29Z")
Just when I thought we’d be able to have a thread about Scotland without Braveheart being mentioned :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/303 "2014-05-01T23:52:05Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Tosh! > > … > > The Scots with their monomaniac mentality can be quite insufferable at times. Very useful when pointed at the foes in some joint enterprise, but a royal pain in arse when they start scrapping with their own side. “Monomaniac mentality”, eh? Isn’t it normally considered a bit silly to ascribe particular characteristics to all residents of a country? > [@filmstar-en](#): > > I really do not see how you can take this nationalistic baloney seriously, it is the creation of the stay-at-home Scots. Well for someone not taking the referendum seriously, you do seem to be getting quite exercised about it. > [@filmstar-en](#): > > London is full of people who have escaped the stultifying confines of their own countries for a place where there is the freedom to work hard and prosper. “Stultifying confines”…“freedom to work hard and prosper”? Your impression of London differs greatly from mine. A ghastly place to live, but I appreciate that others may not agree with me. > [@filmstar-en](#): > > … I suspect most English voices will remain quiet and let the Scottish Unionists slug it out with the SNP. Who knows, maybe the Caledonian mafia will all return to Scotland, join the SNP and sit around with all those town councilors of Glasgow and Edinburgh and have debates about trams and bus passes. > > I think the rest of the UK will have no problem holding onto the best of the talent in Scotland…unless they screw it all up by leaving the EU after some ill judged referendum. That is entirely possible. Scotland has no monopoly on snake oil salesmen posing as politicians. So, it now seems that all Scottish people of whom you approve will go to, or remain, in the rest of the U.K. That being the case, why are you so hot and bothered about it? ---
**Author:** ![Deu5Vult](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ec9cab/32.png) [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/304 "2014-05-02T07:40:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I suspect it might become dangerous for English up here. Should read: "it definitely will become _more_ dangerous for English up here. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/305 "2014-05-02T07:48:58Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > “Monomaniac mentality”, eh? Isn’t it normally considered a bit silly to ascribe particular characteristics to all residents of a country? > > I was referring to those that I have worked with in London who have in the main been professional, ambitious types carving out a career. They would certainly shake up Scottish politics if they were to return. I think for many of them Scotland is somewhere for their retirement, for a quite life. > > Well for someone not taking the referendum seriously, you do seem to be getting quite exercised about it. > > You think my concerns about the disruption it will cause are misplaced? > > “Stultifying confines”…“freedom to work hard and prosper”? Your impression of London differs greatly from mine. A ghastly place to live, but I appreciate that others may not agree with me. > > Indeed, I cannot imagine the moving to some small community full of small minded people. But I guess it suits some people. > > So, it now seems that all Scottish people of whom you approve will go to, or remain, in the rest of the U.K. That being the case, why are you so hot and bothered about it? I am bothered about the cost and who will pay for it. Quite clearly the plan is for the English to pay for Scotlands independence party. I am also very concerned that this will take up huge amounts of time and resources over many years for little benefit either to Scotland or the rest of the UK. How much would the Scots be prepared to pay for Independence? £500 a year? £1000 a year? More? Once a price tag is added to this, I think attitudes will change dramatically. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/306 "2014-05-02T15:39:12Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#): > > Should read: "it definitely will become _more_ dangerous for English up here. I have lived here for a decade and never felt threatened once. Nor have my school age children. The worst that has happened to my wife who works with a mixed population of mentally ill people is that one or two have pretended not to understand her RSP speech. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/307 "2014-05-02T15:41:57Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > I am bothered about the cost and who will pay for it. Quite clearly the plan is for the English to pay for Scotlands independence party. I am also very concerned that this will take up huge amounts of time and resources over many years for little benefit either to Scotland or the rest of the UK. > > How much would the Scots be prepared to pay for Independence? £500 a year? £1000 a year? More? > > Once a price tag is added to this, I think attitudes will change dramatically. How do you figure that “England” will pay for anything? What exactly do you mean. Currently Scotland as an economic unit contributes slightly more to the national exchequer than it receives, certainly that subsidy to the UK will continue. “England” will also lose the security of most of North Sea Petrochemicals, but that is because the are a Scottish National Asset. What other subject will “England” pay for. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/308 "2014-05-03T17:31:25Z")
And so the bribery begins. Scotland given immediate powers to obviate the effects of the bedroom tax. This was one of the SNP’s promises for independence. Running scared? At least no Scots will be forced into penury or out of their homes by Tory legislation. Watch for more capitulation as the months go on. > **[Scottish Government given power to 'end bedroom tax'](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-government-given-power-to-end-bedroom-tax-9320374.html)** > > Cap on discretionary payments to people affected to be lifted ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/309 "2014-05-03T20:29:10Z")
Decommissioning nuclear power plants. Moving the nuclear warhead store and nuclear sub base at Faslane The creation of a Scottish army, navy and airforce and a replacement of all the support infrastructure currently located in other parts of the UK. These things are enormously expensive. Independence is rather more than the trivial rebranding exercise the SNP tends to suggest. Who is going to pick up the bill? I think the Scottish electorate will be fully informed of the cost of the SNP vision of an independent Scotland by September and who will pay for it. That ,and some more devolved powers, may well shift the vote towards the Better Together side of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/310 "2014-05-03T21:06:54Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Decommissioning nuclear power plants. > Moving the nuclear warhead store and nuclear sub base at Faslane > The creation of a Scottish army, navy and airforce and a replacement of all the support infrastructure currently located in other parts of the UK. > > These things are enormously expensive. Independence is rather more than the trivial rebranding exercise the SNP tends to suggest. > > Who is going to pick up the bill? > > I think the Scottish electorate will be fully informed of the cost of the SNP vision of an independent Scotland by September and who will pay for it. That ,and some more devolved powers, may well shift the vote towards the Better Together side of the argument. If rump UK wants Nuclear weapons, it will have to pay for a Rump UK base at some time. All nuclear power plants in Scotland are going to be decommissioned; this will be a shared expense on a GDP basis. Scotland will pay for its own self defence force at a level its Government decides. Quite simple. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/311 "2014-05-03T23:42:46Z")
The chances of England+Wales+NI invading Scotland militarily are nil. The chances of England allowing anyone to invade the Island of Britain, no matter how it feels about Scotland, are nil. Why would Scotland need much of a military? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/312 "2014-05-03T23:45:21Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The chances of England+Wales+NI invading Scotland militarily are nil. > The chances of England allowing anyone to invade the Island of Britain, no matter how it feels about Scotland, are nil. > > Why would Scotland need much of a military? Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/313 "2014-05-04T01:37:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And so the bribery begins. > > Scotland given immediate powers to obviate the effects of the bedroom tax. This was one of the SNP’s promises for independence. Running scared? > > At least no Scots will be forced into penury or out of their homes by Tory legislation. > > Watch for more capitulation as the months go on. > > [Scottish Government given power to 'end bedroom tax' | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-government-given-power-to-end-bedroom-tax-9320374.html) This is hilarious, you characterise a current government trying to save the Union of two nations as ‘capitulation’ when they offer a few more powers in running their own affairs, and when they do something which against Scotland it is ‘oppression’ As to reiterate, you are not being objective in the slightest, and you are not ‘on the fence’ in regards to independence. > [@](#): > > **Dr Drake** > The chances of England+Wales+NI invading Scotland militarily are nil. > The chances of England allowing anyone to invade the Island of Britain, no matter how it feels about Scotland, are nil. > > Why would Scotland need much of a military? This is all very true. However, I’m sure Russia won’t mind once in a while to try and penetrate and grossly violate Scotland’s borders on a whim due to the what constituted the former British military being vacated from their former bases within Scotland. Which leads me to another different point, what’s going to happen if Scotland gets Independence and it’s a slim majority? How do you placate all those Scottish Unionists? > [@](#): > > **filmstar-en** > These things are enormously expensive. Independence is rather more than the trivial re-branding exercise the SNP tends to suggest. Just like they’ve brainwashed **Pjen** into thinking the British Empire ends at Scotland :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/314 "2014-05-04T02:46:28Z")
The Russians are coming! > **[RAF fighter jets intercept Russian bombers off coast of Scotland](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/raf-fighter-jets-russian-bombers-scotland)** > > Ministry of Defence plays down incident in which Typhoons scramble to head off two Tu-95s in international airspace > **[UK deploys four RAF fighter-jets to patrol Baltics airspace](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/28/uk-baltics-deploys-fighter-jets-nato-hammond)** > > Defence secretary says UK to 'play central role' in providing security support to Nato allies during Ukraine crisis I think Mr Salmond should have a quiet word with Mr Putin about this. Perhaps he can come back waving some piece of paper that confirms the good intentions of the Russian military towards the Scottish people. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/315 "2014-05-04T03:05:18Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > However, I’m sure Russia won’t mind once in a while to try and penetrate and grossly violate Scotland’s borders on a whim due to the what constituted the former British military being vacated from their former bases within Scotland. Wait, so now we’re afraid of a Russian invasion? Are you sure you’re done worrying about Napoleon and Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/316 "2014-05-04T04:29:21Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > The Russians are coming! > > [RAF fighter jets intercept Russian bombers off coast of Scotland | Royal Air Force | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/23/raf-fighter-jets-russian-bombers-scotland) > > [UK deploys four RAF fighter-jets to patrol Baltics airspace | Foreign policy | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/28/uk-baltics-deploys-fighter-jets-nato-hammond) > > I think Mr Salmond should have a quiet word with Mr Putin about this. > > Perhaps he can come back waving some piece of paper that confirms the good intentions of the Russian military towards the Scottish people. Scotland would probably be part of NATO - that is the plan- and would receive mutual support as all other countries in NATO do. If not, they would receive support as Ireland does: "There are notable differences between Irish neutrality and traditional types of neutral states: While most[citation needed] neutral states maintain strong defence forces, Ireland has a relatively small defence force of approximately 10,500 personnel[3] While most neutral states do not allow any foreign military within their territory, Ireland has a long history of allowing military aircraft of various nations to refuel at Shannon Airport. Under the Air Navigation (Foreign Military Aircraft) Order, 1952,[4] the Minister for Foreign Affairs, exceptionally, could grant permission to foreign military aircraft to overfly or land in the State. Confirmation was required that the aircraft in question be unarmed, carry no arms, ammunition or explosives and that the flights in question would not form part of military exercises or operations. After the September 11 attacks, these conditions were “waived in respect of aircraft operating in pursuit of the implementation of the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1368”.[5] Irish governments have always said that allowing aircraft to use Irish soil does not constitute participation in any particular conflict and is compatible with a neutral stance, instancing the transit of German troops between Finland and Norway through neutral Swedish territory during World War II. A neutral state may also allow its citizens to serve in the armed forces of other, possibly belligerent, nations. Ireland does not restrict its citizens from serving in foreign armies and significant numbers of Irish citizens serve or have served in the British and to a lesser extent United States armies." > **[Irish neutrality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality)** > > Ireland has a longstanding policy of military neutrality, which has meant not joining military alliances or defence pacts, or taking part in international conflicts. The nature of Irish neutrality has varied over time. The Irish Free State declared itself a neutral country in 1922, and Ireland remained neutral during the Second World War; although it allowed Allied military aircraft to fly through part of its airspace, and shared some intelligence with the Allies (see Irish neutrality during W... ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/317 "2014-05-04T04:35:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This is hilarious, you characterise a current government trying to save the Union of two nations as ‘capitulation’ when they offer a few more powers in running their own affairs, and when they do something which against Scotland it is ‘oppression’ > > As to reiterate, you are not being objective in the slightest, and you are not ‘on the fence’ in regards to independence. I repeat that I am on the fence. I have some misgivings about Independence and would prefer maximum devolution under a federal structure where only Foreign Affairs and such were a UK wide concern, but that Scotland had the right to set any laws that it wished save those reserved to Westminster for Federation purposes. Much as US states have the rights to set most laws. That is not going to happen as it would lead to objections from the English electorate who are already carping about Free prescriptions, free higher education, lack of bedroom tax (now) and every other gain that we have made in the past. As a default I have come to accept, reluctantly, Independence as the only option compatible with the whip hand that English legislators have and the attitude of the English electorate. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/318 "2014-05-04T04:42:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Which leads me to another different point, what’s going to happen if Scotland gets Independence and it’s a slim majority? How do you placate all those Scottish Unionists? A result is a result. There is no prize for coming second. However many of the Unionists are strong devolutionists- there are very few supporters of the status quo! If the vote is slim though, there is likely to be a ratchet effect if it is slim for Union- I can see the question being revisited after say another ten years of Tory rule without considerable further devolution to placate the Scots. If it is for Independence then I imagine a majority of the Unionists will be accepting of the results as the will of the people. It’s called Democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/319 "2014-05-04T17:35:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > A result is a result. There is no prize for coming second. > > However many of the Unionists are strong devolutionists- there are very few supporters of the status quo! > > If the vote is slim though, there is likely to be a ratchet effect if it is slim for Union- I can see the question being revisited after say another ten years of Tory rule without considerable further devolution to placate the Scots. If it is for Independence then I imagine a majority of the Unionists will be accepting of the results as the will of the people. It’s called Democracy. Yeah, so how will you placate them? Which was my question. What if they don’t accept it? > [@](#): > > **Pjen** > **I repeat that I am on the fence**. I have some misgivings about Independence and would prefer maximum devolution under a federal structure where only Foreign Affairs and such were a UK wide concern, but that Scotland had the right to set any laws that it wished save those reserved to Westminster for Federation purposes. Much as US states have the rights to set most laws. That is not going to happen as it would lead to objections from the English electorate who are already carping about Free prescriptions, free higher education, lack of bedroom tax (now) and every other gain that we have made in the past. **As a default I have come to accept, reluctantly, Independence as the only option compatible with the whip hand that English legislators have and the attitude of the English electorate**. Yup, completely objective and non Anglo-phobic! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **Dr. Drake** > Wait, so now we’re afraid of a Russian invasion? Are you sure you’re done worrying about Napoleon and Hitler? Russia’s Navy and Air force repeatedly try to violate UK airspace and territorial waters. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/320 "2014-05-04T17:54:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah, so how will you placate them? Which was my question. What if they don’t accept it? How many elections in advanced democratic societies have required an electorate to be “placated” after a decision has been made in a poll? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=17)