# Why are some people enjoying the possible break up of the UK? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820 "2014-04-10T20:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/321 "2014-05-04T17:55:21Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yup, completely objective and non Anglo-phobic! :rolleyes: Guess I must be a self-hating Englishman then. I had not realised. I thought I just dislike current UK Government policy! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/322 "2014-05-04T17:56:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Russia’s Navy and Air force repeatedly try to violate UK airspace and territorial waters. No, they violate NATO and associated countries’ (Ukraine, Ireland) airspace which NATO needs to defend whether members or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/323 "2014-05-04T19:21:29Z")
> [@](#): > > **Pjen** > How many elections in advanced democratic societies have required an electorate to be “placated” after a decision has been made in a poll? Who said anything about elections? I’m just asking you a simple question, what things will the independent Scottish government do to placate a large minority of Unionist supporters? > [@](#): > > **Pjen** > Guess I must be a self-hating Englishman then. I had not realised. I thought I just dislike current UK Government policy! Why don’t you just say you support independence? Rather than pretending to be neutral in your observations, it’s not a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/324 "2014-05-05T04:28:43Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Who said anything about elections? I’m just asking you a simple question, what things will the independent Scottish government do to placate a large minority of Unionist supporters? > > Why don’t you just say you support independence? Rather than pretending to be neutral in your observations, it’s not a big deal. You misunderstand the nature of the Debate in Scotland (as opposed to the meaningless one in England. Scotland is not riven by any great split- almost everybody wants considerably more autonomy; virtually no-one wants the Status Quo. About a third of the people want complete independence, about a third want maximum devolution and about a third want one or the other but cannot really decide or are uncertain. This is not like making a choice between Tory and Labour for the next Government- more like making a choice between two parties which have a common core but a different way of expressing it. Once the decision has been made people will return to normal without rancour. If the choice is for independence then that will occur in the fullness of time. If it is narrowly against I think the Scots will revisit the question within a decade. I support Independence reluctantly. I would prefer a federal state but that is not going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/325 "2014-05-05T07:47:47Z")
The independence vote is a constitutional question about how Scotland should be governed permanently. If it is treat like a regular election which is a beauty contest between political parties and the personalities of their leaders, that is to misunderstand its significance. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/326 "2014-05-05T07:55:32Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > The independence vote is a constitutional question about how Scotland should be governed permanently. > > If it is treat like a regular election which is a beauty contest between political parties and the personalities of their leaders, that is to misunderstand its significance. But it is a simple choice with an answer that will be known at the close of the poll. One side will win. There is no other possible outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Deu5Vult](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ec9cab/32.png) [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/327 "2014-05-05T09:43:32Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I have lived here for a decade and never felt threatened once. Nor have my school age children. The worst that has happened to my wife who works with a mixed population of mentally ill people is that one or two have pretended not to understand her RSP speech. Well, I sincerely hope you can come back in another ten year’s time and say the same thing, Pjen. Until then, let us not kid ourselves as if a such problem does not exist. As a born-and-bred Scotsman living in Scotland I can promise you that I have an anglophobic-themed anecdote to match every hassle-free day you’ve enjoyed here. I can almost certainly guarantee you that you do not live on a Scottish council estate (or frequent any part of Apache territory for that matter), your children do not play outside in England football shirts nor do you air any appreciation of English culture in public. Your earlier argument to me regarding the erosion of the left and UK/US hegemony is also simply too politically astute to represent the ‘many’ in Scotland, as you claimed. Again, I would contend that Steken summed up the answer to the OP in no less than a couple of soundbites (you are not actually enjoying the break up of the UK are you, Pjen?). This either leads me to believe I’m the victim of some machination of Socratic Irony, or, and I do not mean this in any sense of mockery, that you may be a little naive regarding your experience of Scotland so far. You cannot claim to have experienced Scotland at a grass roots level after all. In your own words you have more or less conveyed that you have left your Englishness at the border and chosen wisely to assimilate with the locals - as many do. Those who do not can often find Scotland a dangerous place to be. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/328 "2014-05-05T10:23:08Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#): > > Well, I sincerely hope you can come back in another ten year’s time and say the same thing, Pjen. Until then, let us not kid ourselves as if a such problem does not exist. > > As a born-and-bred Scotsman living in Scotland I can promise you that I have an anglophobic-themed anecdote to match every hassle-free day you’ve enjoyed here. I can almost certainly guarantee you that you do not live on a Scottish council estate (or frequent any part of Apache territory for that matter), your children do not play outside in England football shirts nor do you air any appreciation of English culture in public. Your earlier argument to me regarding the erosion of the left and UK/US hegemony is also simply too politically astute to represent the ‘many’ in Scotland, as you claimed. Again, I would contend that Steken summed up the answer to the OP in no less than a couple of soundbites (you are not actually enjoying the break up of the UK are you, Pjen?). > This either leads me to believe I’m the victim of some machination of Socratic Irony, or, and I do not mean this in any sense of mockery, that you may be a little naive regarding your experience of Scotland so far. You cannot claim to have experienced Scotland at a grass roots level after all. > > In your own words you have more or less conveyed that you have left your Englishness at the border and chosen wisely to assimilate with the locals - as many do. > > Those who do not can often find Scotland a dangerous place to be. Indeed. I’ve been shouted at in the street for the crime of having an English accent, mostly in East Kilbride. The last time I was in Glasgow I was told to “fuck off back to England”, something that would be seen as racist if it was regarding just about any other country than England. The amusing thing is, I’m half Scot. My Mum is from Renfrew, I’ve been to East Kilbride more times than I can ever count as half my extended family is there. I just have an English accent and as such am seen, in many people’s eyes, as scum. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/329 "2014-05-05T10:54:47Z")
I had more problems living as an Englishman at high school in California in the sixties than I have experienced in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/330 "2014-05-05T12:05:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I had more problems living as an Englishman at high school in California in the sixties than I have experienced in Scotland. Geez, wonder how many Englishmen experienced that ‘suffering’ living in California. In the 60’s no doubt! > [@](#): > > **Pjen** > You misunderstand the nature of the Debate in Scotland (as opposed to the meaningless one in England. > I support Independence reluctantly. I would prefer a federal state but that is not going to happen. Reluctantly? I find that hard to believe given the unabashed support you’ve proclaimed in this thread, which again, isn’t a big deal, just be honest about it! Why is it meaningless in England and not in Scotland, is it not important for England to debate the destruction of the Union? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/331 "2014-05-05T12:39:12Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Geez, wonder how many Englishmen experienced that ‘suffering’ living in California. In the 60’s no doubt! > > Reluctantly? I find that hard to believe given the unabashed support you’ve proclaimed in this thread, which again, isn’t a big deal, just be honest about it! Why is it meaningless in England and not in Scotland, is it not important for England to debate the destruction of the Union? Both are facts into which you have no input. I did have more problems over nationality in California as a teenager than I have had in Scotland as a retiree. I am a reluctant supporter of Independence, but only through frustration at the unwillingness of the UK to move to a federal structure where it is clear which entity is responsible for what without one country having the whip hand. ---
**Author:** ![Deu5Vult](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ec9cab/32.png) [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/332 "2014-05-05T14:04:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I had more problems living as an Englishman at high school in California in the sixties than I have experienced in Scotland. Pjen, I hope I did not infer that you would invariably suffer some form of anti-English negativeness at some time or another while you live in Scotland. It is good to hear that you and your family are having such a positive experience here and I’m absolutely certain it will long continue. All the best. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/333 "2014-05-05T14:09:57Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#): > > Pjen, I hope I did not infer that you would invariably suffer some form of anti-English negativeness at some time or another while you live in Scotland. It is good to hear that you and your family are having such a positive experience here and I’m absolutely certain it will long continue. > > All the best. We were a little apprehensive moving here, but it has been no problem. We are well integrated with the community unlike many English immigrants who retreat to English country club living. We live in a rural/burgh area where everyone knows everyone else- small town. I think it very much depends on your attitude. It probably helps that we are known as SNP members, very active in school and village business, and the kids celebrate their Scottish experience even though they were born in England (they were to young to develop a sense of Englishness.) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/334 "2014-05-05T14:41:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > We were a little apprehensive moving here, but it has been no problem. We are well integrated with the community unlike many English immigrants who retreat to English country club living. We live in a rural/burgh area where everyone knows everyone else- small town. > > I think it very much depends on your attitude. It probably helps that we are known as SNP members, very active in school and village business, and the kids celebrate their Scottish experience even though they were born in England (they were to young to develop a sense of Englishness.) Ah, so what if you were a Unionist in Scotland? No doubt your experience would be different, and that’s the point, as long as you are more Scottish than the Scots, they’ll accept you, but why should it be only _that_ way? Your denigrating of the English is tiring. You do realise that if you’re pro-Scottish it doesn’t have to come at the expense of denying your Englishness. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/335 "2014-05-05T15:12:43Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ah, so what if you were a Unionist in Scotland? No doubt your experience would be different, and that’s the point, as long as you are more Scottish than the Scots, they’ll accept you, but why should it be only _that_ way? Why is that relevant to the referendum? And also, if you don’t mind me thinking out loud: is it possible that English-Scottish relations would actually **improve** (with time) if Scotland becomes independent? I say this with the Spanish example in mind; we have reached a point where tension between Spaniards and Catalans is so high that we might be better off granting them independence. It’s better to have each other as neighbours than as annoying housemates. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/336 "2014-05-05T16:18:47Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Why is that relevant to the referendum? > > And also, if you don’t mind me thinking out loud: is it possible that English-Scottish relations would actually **improve** (with time) if Scotland becomes independent? I say this with the Spanish example in mind; we have reached a point where tension between Spaniards and Catalans is so high that we might be better off granting them independence. It’s better to have each other as neighbours than as annoying housemates. Who says they’re annoying housemates? I don’t see Scottish people as annoying whatsoever, I’m sure there are plenty of Scots who think the same without having to be independent. I’m just tired of Pjens anti-English sentiment, and the fact that knowing if he was a supporter of Unionism and blatant about it in his local area, the sentiment of him being in Scotland would be quite different, however that’s because the narrative has been hijacked as ‘sticking it to those rich boys in London’ to score cheap political points rather than addressing the fundamental issue, which is the destruction of a British identity with Scottish Independence. So it’s very important to the referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/337 "2014-05-05T16:27:58Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ah, so what if you were a Unionist in Scotland? No doubt your experience would be different, and that’s the point, as long as you are more Scottish than the Scots, they’ll accept you, but why should it be only _that_ way? > > Your denigrating of the English is tiring. You do realise that if you’re pro-Scottish it doesn’t have to come at the expense of denying your Englishness. I do not denigrate the English. I do denigrate English Unionists with an attitude problem. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/338 "2014-05-05T16:29:10Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Who says they’re annoying housemates? I don’t see Scottish people as annoying whatsoever, I’m sure there are plenty of Scots who think the same without having to be independent. I’m just tired of Pjens anti-English sentiment, and the fact that knowing if he was a supporter of Unionism and blatant about it in his local area, the sentiment of him being in Scotland would be quite different, however that’s because the narrative has been hijacked as ‘sticking it to those rich boys in London’ to score cheap political points rather than addressing the fundamental issue, which is the destruction of a British identity with Scottish Independence. So it’s very important to the referendum. This is an excellent example of the attitude problem to which I was referring! ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/339 "2014-05-05T16:41:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I do not denigrate the English. I do denigrate English Unionists with an attitude problem. Ah so if you were in the middle of Scotland, blatantly Unionist, and did all the same things you did to integrate in the local community, you would receive the same treatment? Am I correct? Mate, you’ve constantly harboured a negative attitude towards English people in general on this thread, which is fine, but just stop pretending you don’t, you’ll look less of a hypocrite that way. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/340 "2014-05-05T17:07:38Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ah so if you were in the middle of Scotland, blatantly Unionist, and did all the same things you did to integrate in the local community, you would receive the same treatment? Am I correct? > > Mate, you’ve constantly harboured a negative attitude towards English people in general on this thread, which is fine, but just stop pretending you don’t, you’ll look less of a hypocrite that way. As I am English and all my family are English (or Irish and Welsh further back in part) it is difficult to see how I can be anti-English. I dislike the rightward slant of English politics and I am happier in Scotland certainly, but that is a choice. I support England at Rugby and Cricket (and would support them at Football if I followed it.) I would like you to point out a single anti-English in general rather than single characteristic that I have criticised. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=18)