# Why are some people enjoying the possible break up of the UK? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820 "2014-04-10T20:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/441 "2014-05-14T06:31:38Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > You completely misread me. I’m a keen supporter of Scottish independence, and I would be very happy to see the Scottish people take the revolutionary (but non-violent) route to independence, as opposed to the legitimist route. > > But, realistically, I don’t think they will. If there is an affirmative vote in the referendum (as to which, to be honest, I am not optimistic) the Scottish government will negotiate with the UK government for the granting of independence on agreed terms. I agree with you that the political imperative to grant independence will be irresistible, but that won’t prevent the UK government from seeking to protect the interests and influence of rump-UK in the independence negotiations, and driving the hardest bargain it can, given its bargaining position. > > I expect independence to be effected by legitimist means - specifically, an agreement between the Scottish and UK governments, given legal force by an Act of the Westminster Parliament - much as it has been for nearly all former UK possessions. > > Whether a later Scottish government will “do a de Valera” and introduce a new _grundnorm_ for Scottish statehood founded on the will of the people rather than the assent of Westminster remains to be seen. FWIW I would welcome that, but there is no reason why my wishes in the matter should carry any weight with future Scottish governments. Sorry about misreading you. Scotland has always had its sovereignty in the people, rather than in the monarch, so would see its sovereignty returning to it as of right, not granted by Westminster. I expect a Yes vote unless the Better Together Campaign actually comes alive- of which there is no sign up here. Negotiations with the Rump UK may be hard ball, but Faslane is the deciding factor- the rump UK is over a barrel on that one- no other bargaining chip is as absolute as that and Salmond will make every use of the “nuclear option”! Nothing Rump UK can do could have as much effect on Scotland as being required to exit Faslane within a year! ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/442 "2014-05-14T06:51:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Sorry about misreading you. No worries. > [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland has always had its sovereignty in the people, rather than in the monarch, so would see its sovereignty returning to it as of right, not granted by Westminster. Yes, Scotland - as in, the Scottish people - might see it that way. So will most democrats and republicans around the world, I dare say. But Westminster won’t see it that way - from Westminster’s perspective, sovereignty resides in the crown-in-parliament, not in the people - and SFAIK Scottish law currently takes the Westminster view of the matter. Which is why I say that the view that Scottish political institutions derive their validity and legitimacy from the will of the people, and not from a transfer or delegation from Westminster, is technically a revolutionary view. It asserts an alternative (and inconsistent) source of the legitimacy and authority of the state. > [@Pjen](#): > > I expect a Yes vote unless the Better Together Campaign actually comes alive- of which there is no sign up here. I hope your reading of the situation is more accurate than mine, so. > [@Pjen](#): > > Negotiations with the Rump UK may be hard ball, but Faslane is the deciding factor- the rump UK is over a barrel on that one- no other bargaining chip is as absolute as that and Salmond will make every use of the “nuclear option”! Nothing Rump UK can do could have as much effect on Scotland as being required to exit Faslane within a year! Depends. How happy are the Scots for the base as Faslane to remain? Is this something they’re willing to accept, in return for other concessions that are more important to them? Also, expect the UK to try and turn this around. They won’t offer, e.g., currency union and support for EU membership in return for an agreement to keep Faslane; they’ll offer independence in return for an agreement to keep Faslane, and then try to take the position that, once that trade-off has been agreed, it’s a done deal and they don’t need to keep making further concessions to retain Faslane. Expect the words “Faslane” and “non-negotiable” to come up early, and often, in the independence talks! ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/443 "2014-05-14T08:19:13Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Except for little things like energy policy, defence, foreign policy, taxation, welfare … What? Self determination is not the same as independence. Self determination is the right of a people to choose their own sovereignty and political status. Scotland clearly has self-determination within the UK. Nationalists muddying the waters by trying to conflate independence with self-determination doesn’t change that fact. Say what you like about Westminster they seem to actually believe in the principle of self-determination. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/444 "2014-05-14T08:23:47Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > First of all, the referendum is purely advisory. A vote in favour of independence will be noted, politically, but legally it will not be sufficient to establish a sovereign Scottish state. Legally, in fact, it won’t have any effect at all. And I don’t think independence is constituted by the right to conduct non-binding referenda. Of course it won’t be sufficient to establish a Scottish state. What sort of stupid idea is that? A referendum is held and the next day independent Scotland comes into being, with things like the military, national debt, passports, driving licenses, currency and so on negotiated after the fact? The fact of the matter is the referendum may not be enough to establish an independent Scottish state immediately, but it’s absolutely certain that after a successful referendum result for the “Yes” campaign and a period of negotiations between iScotland and rUK Scotland will become independent. > [@](#): > > Secondly, the Union doesn’t _guarantee_ Scotland the right to hold even non-binding referenda of this kind. This referendum is permitted by an Order-in-Council made in Westminster, by the UK authorities. Having to get permission to do something is pretty much the opposite of being guaranteed the right to do it. In as much as ultimate sovereignty lies with Westminster, yes. Politically, however, it’s pretty clear that any devolved region that elected a government with a mandate from that region to hold an independence referendum will be granted one. > [@](#): > > Thirdly, even if the Scots did have self-determination within the UK, “self-determination within the UK” is plainly materially different from unqualified self-determination. This doesn’t even make a lick of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/445 "2014-05-14T08:35:28Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > What? Self determination is not the same as independence. Self determination is the right of a people to choose their own sovereignty and political status. Scotland clearly has self-determination within the UK. Nationalists muddying the waters by trying to conflate independence with self-determination doesn’t change that fact. > > Say what you like about Westminster they seem to actually believe in the principle of self-determination. Then why are we forced to have the bedroom tax, limits on immigration, no control over corporation tax, no control over drink drive limit and so on. Westminster still controls considerable amounts of Scottish day to day life. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/446 "2014-05-14T08:42:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Then why are we forced to have the bedroom tax, limits on immigration, no control over corporation tax, no control over drink drive limit and so on. Westminster still controls considerable amounts of Scottish day to day life. You’re misunderstanding **CRSP**. Westminster does believe in self-determination: that is why the Scottish referendum will go ahead and its result will be accepted. It is acknowledged that Scotland is a political entity that has the right to **decide** which policy areas it can control. The fact that Scotland is currently forced to implement policies drafted in London means nothing from a self-determination point of view. It simply means that, as of today, the political entity named Scotland has not decided to take care of those policies itself. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/447 "2014-05-14T10:36:33Z")
Only after Scotland is independent will it finally achieve self-determination! ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/448 "2014-05-14T12:45:51Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Only after Scotland is independent will it finally achieve self-determination! No. If Scotland votes “no” to independence, then she will have **determined** to remain part of the UK. Self-determination is not independence; it is choosing **whether** or not you want to be independent. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/449 "2014-05-14T12:51:12Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > You’re misunderstanding **CRSP**. Westminster does believe in self-determination: that is why the Scottish referendum will go ahead and its result will be accepted. It is acknowledged that Scotland is a political entity that has the right to **decide** which policy areas it can control. > > The fact that Scotland is currently forced to implement policies drafted in London means nothing from a self-determination point of view. It simply means that, as of today, the political entity named Scotland has not decided to take care of those policies itself. What is CRSP. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/450 "2014-05-14T12:53:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What is CRSP. Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party. I was too lazy to type the whole username 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/451 "2014-05-14T13:08:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Then why are we forced to have the bedroom tax, limits on immigration, no control over corporation tax, no control over drink drive limit and so on. Westminster still controls considerable amounts of Scottish day to day life. Even with independence Westminster will be controlling large amounts of Scottish day to day life. Immigration levels will be kept in line with the rUK as Scotland plans to enter the CTA. Monetary and fiscal policy in Scotland will be largely under control of Westminster due to being in a currency union with rUK. Independence isn’t a break from Westminster, at least not the independence that Salmond is selling. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/452 "2014-05-14T14:15:52Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Even with independence Westminster will be controlling large amounts of Scottish day to day life. Immigration levels will be kept in line with the rUK as Scotland plans to enter the CTA. Monetary and fiscal policy in Scotland will be largely under control of Westminster due to being in a currency union with rUK. Independence isn’t a break from Westminster, at least not the independence that Salmond is selling. How do you get to that conclusion? There is nothing in the CTA set up that stops Ireland having a somewhat different immigration policy to the UK- it does. There is a commitment to ensure that there is similarity, but no binding agreement to have identical policies. If Scotland wanted to repopulate by offering visas to particular groups of citizens, this is no different to the current differences between Irish and British rules on citizenship and residence that are broadly comparable but not in lock step. What could become a problem is if rumpUK leaves the EU (as unlikely as this is). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/453 "2014-05-14T14:17:02Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Even with independence Westminster will be controlling large amounts of Scottish day to day life. Immigration levels will be kept in line with the rUK as Scotland plans to enter the CTA. Monetary and fiscal policy in Scotland will be largely under control of Westminster due to being in a currency union with rUK. Independence isn’t a break from Westminster, at least not the independence that Salmond is selling. Scotland may or may not be in a Currency Union- that is yet to be decided. Though Osbourne is campaigning for the Better Together scaremongers today in Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/454 "2014-05-14T15:26:25Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > No. If Scotland votes “no” to independence, then she will have **determined** to remain part of the UK. Self-determination is not independence; it is choosing **whether** or not you want to be independent. I nearly put a smiley on it. I should have put a smiley on it. But then I thought, “surely it’s too obviously stupid to be sincere, right?”. Like I’d never even \*heard \*of the internet. > [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland may or may not be in a Currency Union- that is yet to be decided. Though Osbourne is campaigning for the Better Together scaremongers today in Parliament. Osborne is a loathsome clown who has badly mismanaged the recovery. But the basic points he’s making about currency union are hard to argue with: [ul] [li]Scotland would relinquish control over its currency[/li][li]England would have no particular incentive to make decisions based on Scotland’s interests[/li][li]Repudiation of Scotland’s debt to the UK would harm the new country’s reputation on the international markets[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/455 "2014-05-14T15:37:20Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I nearly put a smiley on it. I should have put a smiley on it. But then I thought, “surely it’s too obviously stupid to be sincere, right?”. Like I’d never even \*heard \*of the internet. > > Osborne is a loathsome clown who has badly mismanaged the recovery. But the basic points he’s making about currency union are hard to argue with: > > [ul] > [li]Scotland would relinquish control over its currency[/li][li]England would have no particular incentive to make decisions based on Scotland’s interests[/li][li]Repudiation of Scotland’s debt to the UK would harm the new country’s reputation on the international markets[/li][/ul] Against that would be the facts that Scotland would be in no worse a position than it is today England already makes its decisions on the South east and London and ignores Scotland It is arguable that the debt is counteracted by the possession of the currency- if England takes the security of the currency, it needs to also take the debt that is associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/456 "2014-05-14T22:49:51Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Say what you like about Westminster they seem to actually believe in the principle of self-determination. I suppose it’s more accurate to say that Westminster was dragged, kicking and screaming, over the course of several decades, to a position where it grudgingly acknowledged that interference with Scottish self-determination was no longer politically tenable. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/457 "2014-05-14T23:20:33Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I suppose it’s more accurate to say that Westminster was dragged, kicking and screaming, over the course of several decades, to a position where it grudgingly acknowledged that interference with Scottish self-determination was no longer politically tenable. Or Westminster waited until the Scots voted en masse for the SNP. Its kinda difficult for Westminster be dragged kicking and screaming when Scots consistenly voted for a mostly status quo Labour Party. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/458 "2014-05-15T01:05:00Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Even with independence Westminster will be controlling large amounts of Scottish day to day life. Immigration levels will be kept in line with the rUK as Scotland plans to enter the CTA. Monetary and fiscal policy in Scotland will be largely under control of Westminster due to being in a currency union with rUK. Independence isn’t a break from Westminster, at least not the independence that Salmond is selling. Independence doesn’t mean that practical realities disappear. An independent, but small, country has to decide whether, e.g., to maintain its own currency, to link to the currency of another country, to enter a currency union, etc. Independence consists in the ability to make the choice between those options. Plus, it’s a mistake to assume that, e.g., the maintenance of a common travel area only involves the Scots accepting restrictions on their immigration/border control policies. Something like a common travel area is agreed between the countries concerned. It’s only agreed if they both want it; they both want it only if it’s in both their interests; and if it’s in the interests of rump UK then that give the Scots (and the Irish) some bargaining power. The fact that rump UK will be much the bigger entity, and the one with the major transport hubs to the rest of the world give it _more_ bargaining power, of course. But if rump UK actually wants a CTA with Scotland and Ireland, then it’s in rump UK’s interests to be willing to make concessions to achieve this, and Scotland and Ireland would be aware of this. Rump UK knows that large numbers of its citizens reside in Scotland and Ireland - and many of them will have votes in rump UK. As will their families and friends living in rump UK. The establishment of a common travel area can’t be reduced to a matter of Scotland and Ireland mindlessly implementing rump-UK immigration policies over which they have no influence. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/459 "2014-05-15T01:07:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland may or may not be in a Currency Union- that is yet to be decided. Though Osbourne is campaigning for the Better Together scaremongers today in Parliament. The two options would seem to be (a) sterling, or (b) the euro, both of which are currency unions of one kind or another. Realistically, is an independent Scottish currency on the table at all? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/460 "2014-05-15T02:37:17Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Or Westminster waited until the Scots voted en masse for the SNP. Its kinda difficult for Westminster be dragged kicking and screaming when Scots consistenly voted for a mostly status quo Labour Party. Well, there was that whole 1979 referendum thing. That kinda…stung. It’s not as if the issue of Scottish self-determination sprung fully-formed last week from the loins of the SNP. Sure, in Westminster elections Scots tend to vote Labour, because they see the alternative as worse. I don’t think you can assume, however, that this fact means that most Scots are opposed to independence or further devolution. We just vote Labour because it’s usually the best way to vote against the Tories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=24)