# Why are some people enjoying the possible break up of the UK? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820 "2014-04-10T20:46:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/41 "2014-04-13T21:29:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who here is putting forth a wholly negative narrative? Not so much here as in the Guardian. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/42 "2014-04-13T21:31:06Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Not so much here as in the Guardian. Oh, OK. Rarely is anything like this all good or all bad. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/43 "2014-04-13T21:38:31Z")
Some Scottish-independence-wanting _Guardian_ readers take the view that “if only we could cut free from London & S.E./Thatcherland we might have a decent chance of building the sort of comforting social democracy state that we had for a brief moment from, say, 1945 - 1979, instead of this neo-liberalism that seems to be taking over the world. Give the people their familiar comfort blankets (sterling, the Queen, the EU) if they must have them, and tell them everything will change but nothing will change. Once it’s on its feet we can start ditching Salmond and the SNP, and argue for ‘socialism in one country’. It might even show England back to the right road.” ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/44 "2014-04-13T21:45:58Z")
Only the People matter, States are temporary organisations of convenience. It’s always an event worthy of celebration when the citizens of a region get to have the state formation they wish. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/45 "2014-04-13T22:23:30Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > One of the main reasons Scotland joined in a union with England and Wales was because it was bankrupt. It tried to create a colony in the Americas. Hibernia in swampy mosquito infested Panama. Small countries delude themselves that they have some sort of secret sauce to make themselves great. What now of Irelands ‘Celtic Tiger’ economy? Or the Icelandic financial fairy dust that grew money out of nothing. I don’t doubt that it will happen again. This time the Scottish Nationalist Salmon points to the Nordic countries for his model. Best of luck with that one. “Caledonia in swampy mosquito infested Panama” surely. Plus, your implication that larger countries are run better than smaller ones, because of their size, is demonstrably incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/46 "2014-04-14T00:39:22Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why should independence be automatically considered good, when a Union pretty much guarantees all the freedoms that they want anyway, and which could be provided under a devolved government. If one of the freedoms they want is self-determination, the Union clearly doesn’t guarantee that. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/47 "2014-04-14T01:35:44Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I was under the impression that, while Scottish MPs certainly _can_ vote on English/Welsh/Northern Irish issues, they have adopted a convention since devolution that they generally do not do so. Is this correct? No. unfortunately not correct. The SNP ones do not, as a matter or principle, vote on purely English/Welsh whatever matters, but the other parties prefer not to deprive themselves of any votes in Parliament. So it’s possible to find Scottish MPs that are Liberal or Labour OR Tory, voting on matters that they really shouldn’t, like health or education. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/48 "2014-04-14T05:47:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > With all due respect, that is amazingly tone-def. Without union, probably most Scots would speed English just fine, but they’d probably also speak Whatever version of Gaelic was spoken there, too. As it is, it’s like a red-headed stepchild of a language. In a world where commerce is king, the EU exists, and European wars don’t seem so likely (except maybe in the East), there isn’t so much to be gained from union. Gaelic has never been THE Scottish Language. Gaelic was common in the highlands and islands and filtered into central Scotland, but for centuries the vast majority of Scots lived outside this area and spoke a Northern British Germanic Language, sometimes called Lowland, Lollands, Braird Scots or just Scots. Even the Aberdeen area has its own Germanic language- Doric. Gaelic and the various Scots tongues are entirely unrelated in vocabulary and form. Gaelic is very similar to Irish Gaelic and the two languages developed as the complex emigration and immigration between North Western Scotland and Ireland occurred over many centuries. Modern Scots usage varies from a simple accent, vocabulary and syntax variation on standard English, through complex and varied non-English vocabulary and syntax to the point of mutual lack of understanding. I am English living in Scotland and can understand much broad Scots but some is beyond me; some is beyond many Scots also- See the film Brave where what appears to be an Idiot son speaking garbage is heavily accented Doric! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/49 "2014-04-14T05:51:11Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Tony Blair > Gordon Brown > Alistair Darling > > The disproportionately huge number of Scottish MP who get to vote on issues that don’t even apply to Scotland. > > Yes, Ｉ can definately see why some English want independence from Scotland. Tony Blair was not obviously culturally Scottish and represented an English constituency. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/50 "2014-04-14T06:07:09Z")
Speaking as English living in Scotland for over a decade, there is much pride here in how much better we are governed than the rest of the UK in devolved areas- Education, Health Service, Local Government, Legal System, Penal Policy and so on. Looking back to England from the outside from here looks like observing Bedlam on a bad day. We have a system that seems to more at peace with itself and communitarian in every aspect. Yet we are still unable to control many aspects of society in such a manner. Whatever the outcome in September, much more autonomy will flow to Scotland and in my opinion this can only be a good thing. I share with you a Party Political Broadcast from three years ago that gives some idea of the changes wrought since devolution. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/POP-DjI0wvw/maxresdefault.jpg "What has the Scottish Government Ever Done for Us? SNP Political Broadcast 2011") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POP-DjI0wvw) many want more and the Independence ‘Yes’ campaign seems to be gaining fast on the very negative Unionist ‘No’ campaign. Interesting times! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/51 "2014-04-14T08:52:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > With all due respect, that is amazingly tone-def. Without union, probably most Scots would speed English just fine, but they’d probably also speak Whatever version of Gaelic was spoken there, too. Are you sure? First of all you have the issue of which language an independent Scotland should promote: Scots or Gaelic. Then you have the various economic and cultural forces that have pushed many languages into obscurity, and do so with ever greater force. I think Scots and Gaelic would have experienced the same sidelining that’s happened to languages with small populations worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/52 "2014-04-14T08:57:02Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Tony Blair was not obviously culturally Scottish and represented an English constituency. He was born and raised in Edinburgh to Scottish parents. Yes, he represented an English constituency, should Scotland become independent, I assume Scots would still be allowed to stand in the rUK, as people from Southern Ireland and the Commonwealth are currently [eligible](http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/electing-mps/candidates/)to stand. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/53 "2014-04-14T10:42:21Z")
I have zero enthusiam for the issue. I’m sure I’m missing a lot, can someone tell me why I should care? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/54 "2014-04-14T10:47:34Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > He was born and raised in Edinburgh to Scottish parents. > Yes, he represented an English constituency, should Scotland become independent, I assume Scots would still be allowed to stand in the rUK, as people from Southern Ireland and the Commonwealth are currently [eligible](http://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/electing-mps/candidates/)to stand. Although born to Scottish parents, Tony Blair’s primary education was in England, his secondary back in Scotland, his tertiary in England. He never lived in Scotland as an adult. He qualified for the English Bar and lived in England his entire political life. He rarely identified as Scottish, spoke with a received southern English accent, and was not seen by Scots as truly a Scot. Proud of his Scottish heritage, he never proclaimed it in any public manner. The main question is not about ‘Scots’ being elected to Parliament (we have had many MPs with other nationalities, German, Pakistani, Indian, Australian, New Zealand, Canadian and Irish) but being a person elected to represent a Scottish seat. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/55 "2014-04-14T10:49:16Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Are you sure? > > First of all you have the issue of which language an independent Scotland should promote: Scots or Gaelic. > Then you have the various economic and cultural forces that have pushed many languages into obscurity, and do so with ever greater force. > > I think Scots and Gaelic would have experienced the same sidelining that’s happened to languages with small populations worldwide. See Ireland where Gaelic remains a minority option even after nearly a century of non British Empire rule. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/56 "2014-04-14T10:57:47Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > I have zero enthusiam for the issue. I’m sure I’m missing a lot, can someone tell me why I should care? Are you British? If so it is important as Scotland would take 85% of current offshore reserves of Gas and Oil. Additionally the tecnology for undersea Fracking is being developed- guess where most of the possible gas fields are! It is thought that Britain’s AAA credit rating may be damaged by the split, pushing up interest rates by a couple of percent. It might be the trigger for realigning the Security Council, stripping France and Britain of their Seats and having seats for Europe, Brazil, South Africa, India etc. Faslane is in Scotland. Scotland may decide to become a nuclear free zone. Britain would have repeated un-removable Tory governments (even if the referendum says no now, the prospect of further Tory Governments might easily result in a re-run within a decade anyway- if it is close it will not be ‘settled for a generation’ as hoped by the Unionists.) There is just a possibility that Scotland would decide to stay in the EU and rump Britain leave- that would be interesting! Scottish Corporation tax might be lowered to improve industrialisation and work prospects in Scotland, competing with rump Britain for car manufacture etc. It affects everyone in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/57 "2014-04-14T13:23:30Z")
I cannot see in any way how this is a good thing for Scotland. However, a couple of questions as to what this all means… 1. Will Scotland still remain part of the Commonwealth (whatever that is), ala Canada? 2. I guess this means that the US will have to formally recognize Scottish independence and establish an embassy? (And, by extension, does Scotland automatically get a seat in the UN?) 3. What are the odds of increased militarism along the Britain/Scotland border? A fence? Checkpoints? Hell, even wargames? 4. Scotland will need a military, right? If they have offshore oil leases, they’ll need a Navy to protect their interests. Are these ships going to be built, bought, or impounded? Is Scotland going to argue that since they constitute roughly 8% of the population of the UK, they should get 8% of the Royal Navy? 5. Does Scotland think she can win a war with England if it comes to that? Yeah, I know - “it’s not going to happen.” But somebody has to think Worst Case Scenario - is anybody on the Scottish side doing that? Don’t forget: Queen Elizabeth’s words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS. 6. Don’t know if you do this over in the UK, but in the US it is common to see maps that show the relative amounts of Federal tax inflows and outflows from each State, per capita, so that you can tell that some States [effectively subsidize other States](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/give-take-small-final.png). If you do the same thing, what will be the tax/benefit ratio for Scotland? Does she pay more than they get back, or is Scotland partially subsidized by the other parts of the UK? (Please note this question assumes there is an overarching budget for the entire United Kingdom, but for all I know the various sections already are self-reliant in that their tax receipts exactly match their tax expenditures.) 7. If Scotland doesn’t establish its own currency, it has effectively given control of Monetary policy to the ECB, the Bank of England, or the Federal Reserve… with no say into how two of these institutions conduct business, and merely being 1 out of 30-odd votes in the third. Does Scotland want to be a GIPSI/PIIGS? > **[2011: The Year of the European GIPSI?](https://seekingalpha.com/article/236784-2011-the-year-of-the-european-gipsi)** > > PIIGS is truly not a flattering acronym, and can be deemed offensive and downright cruel. > **[PIGS (economics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_(economics))** > > PIGS is a derogatory acronym that has been used to designate the economies of the Southern European countries of Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain. During the European debt crisis of 2009–14 the variant PIIGS, or GIPSI, was coined to include Ireland. At the time these five EU member states were struggling to refinance their government debt or to bail out over-indebted banks. > The term originated in the 1990s with the increased integration of the EU economies, and it was often used in reference t... ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/58 "2014-04-14T15:01:16Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > See Ireland where Gaelic remains a minority option even after nearly a century of non British Empire rule. Fair point, if Ireland had gained independence in say 1800 when English to Gaelic speakers were closer to 50/50, it might have had a chance to become (or remain) the actual language of the majority but by the 1920s the damage was already long since done. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/59 "2014-04-14T15:37:43Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > 1. Will Scotland still remain part of the Commonwealth (whatever that is), ala Canada? Yes, or at least I think that’s what the independence white paper said. As to what the Commonwealth is: one of my lecturers at university kept saying that it was “the methadone of empire”. That one stuck with me. > [@JohnT](#): > > 1. I guess this means that the US will have to formally recognize Scottish independence and establish an embassy? (And, by extension, does Scotland automatically get a seat in the UN?) The US could do whatever they want, but London would recognise Scottish independence. Scotland would probably have to apply to enter the UN but that shouldn’t be a problem (I don’t see Russia, China, France or the UK vetoing it). Their entry into the EU could be threatened by Spain, but I’m sure that wouldn’t be an issue in the long-term. > [@JohnT](#): > > 1. What are the odds of increased militarism along the Britain/Scotland border? A fence? Checkpoints? Hell, even wargames? Very unlikely, seeing how friendly this whole process is being. The Scotland/Britain border would probably remain open under a similar agreement to the one the UK and Ireland have at the moment. > [@JohnT](#): > > 1. Scotland will need a military, right? If they have offshore oil leases, they’ll need a Navy to protect their interests. Are these ships going to be built, bought, or impounded? Is Scotland going to argue that since they constitute roughly 8% of the population of the UK, they should get 8% of the Royal Navy? No idea, but I don’t see them being stupid enough to steal Royal Navy material. Maybe they’ll go for the Icelandic route - no standing army but support from NATO? > [@JohnT](#): > > 1. Does Scotland think she can win a war with England if it comes to that? Yeah, I know - “it’s not going to happen.” But somebody has to think Worst Case Scenario - is anybody on the Scottish side doing that? Don’t forget: Queen Elizabeth’s words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS. No, of course not. It would be idiotic of them to even risk a war with England-Wales-NI. > [@JohnT](#): > > If you do the same thing, what will be the tax/benefit ratio for Scotland? Does she pay more than they get back, or is Scotland partially subsidized by the other parts of the UK? Maybe some knowledgeable StraightDoper will have an answer, but I don’t think there is. Spain has had a similar conflict with Catalonia for decades now, but no-one really knows whether Catalonia gets more than it gives. > [@JohnT](#): > > 1. If Scotland doesn’t establish its own currency, it has effectively given control of Monetary policy to the ECB, the Bank of England, or the Federal Reserve… with no say into how two of these institutions conduct business, and merely being 1 out of 30-odd votes in the third. Does Scotland want to be a GIPSI/PIIGS? From my own experience, what sunk the PIGS countries was not the Euro. It was widespread corruption, unsustainable economic growth based on speculation, and very weak state institutions. Scotland will have little financial independence whether it sticks to the pound or adopts the Euro, but I’m sure it doesn’t suffer from as many fundamental weaknesses as Spain or Italy. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820/60 "2014-04-14T15:45:35Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Are you sure? > > First of all you have the issue of which language an independent Scotland should promote: Scots or Gaelic. > Then you have the various economic and cultural forces that have pushed many languages into obscurity, and do so with ever greater force. > > I think Scots and Gaelic would have experienced the same sidelining that’s happened to languages with small populations worldwide. I agree. At this point, an independent Scotland would no doubt continue to promote Standard English, and funnel some token money to promoting both Scots and Gaelic. Neither would get enough support to be viable community languages except in remote regions where they already are anyway. I only brought up language as an example of a distinctive, easily recognizable area of culture which has declined due to the existence of the UK. It’s far too late for either of them to be a national language again. Even Welsh, which is doing very well, is holding steady at best. English is too commercially valuable a skill set. The same with other facets of UK culture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-people-enjoying-the-possible-break-up-of-the-uk/685820.md?page=4)