# Why are some restaurant locations "cursed"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 4, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934 "2010-06-04T15:10:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/21 "2010-06-05T04:52:32Z")
We have a place like that in Milwaukee. Started out as a Sizzler that closed\*, since then it’s been I think three other places and a fourth one is about to open. You’d think at some point someone would tear it down and put up an office building or a store or something other then a restaurant. I felt bad for the last people that went in there. They had a bar elsewhere, been around for quite a few years, then they moved to this place and went out of business in less then a year. \*The Sizzler closed after a child got E.Coli and died…Whether or not the stigma is what caused all the other places to fail, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/22 "2010-06-05T05:40:52Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > We have a place like that in Milwaukee. Started out as a Sizzler that closed\*, since then it’s been I think three other places and a fourth one is about to open. You’d think at some point someone would tear it down and put up an office building or a store or something other then a restaurant. I felt bad for the last people that went in there. They had a bar elsewhere, been around for quite a few years, then they moved to this place and went out of business in less then a year. What bar, what restaurant? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/23 "2010-06-05T07:39:27Z")
There’s some behind-the-scenes action that can kill even an established and successful restaurant. Berkeley is a fairly famous town in California, with lots and lots of places to eat, from student-oriented holes to funky ethnic eateries to fast food counters to internationally famous restaurants. It’s also densely populated, being in close proximity to San Francisco and with a world-class University. Property values are high, and if you just paid outrageous coin for a building with some restaurant space, the impulse is to jack up that lease. If you’ve got an already-thriving business in that space, well, it’s a gold mine! Crank that baby up to 11! Except that restaurants are a lower margin than some property owners realize, and more competitive than the line out the door would lead you to believe. So the high rent kills off the business, or the restaurant moves, and a succession of naive wanna-bes, franchisees, and other starry-eyed folk moves in, fails, and moves out. Bancroft and Telegraph should be one of the best corners in town, but I saw a parade of food shops fail when I was there in the '80s, though some of them were very good indeed. Another near-failure was Cafe Roma, which was the single most popular cafe near campus. Excellent coffee, huge customer loyalty, nearly driven out of business when the new landlord kicked up the rent. They relocated, and were successful for a while, but still ended up closing some years later. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/24 "2010-06-05T12:01:31Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > What bar, what restaurant? > > -Joe Over the last 10 years the restautant on 8th and Layton has been… Sizzler Bigg’s Roadhouse Milwaukee Grill Bigalke’s and coming soon…the Stone Sword, a medieval themed restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![Neptunian\_Slug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce7236/32.png) [@Neptunian\_Slug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neptunian_Slug)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/25 "2010-06-05T12:50:40Z")
> [@Spiff](#): > > (Bolding by Spiff.) > > But the answer, times three, **is in your OP**. > > The restaurants closed because they served crappy food, no cursed building necessary. Agreed. Good restaurants are tough to do. Every now and then you get a restaurant owner who moves into the ‘cursed’ restaurant spot and makes a go of it because they serve good eats. Location matters, but a great location can only cover for lousy food. With the recession, I see a ton of places closed that should have died a long time ago. This was the last straw. That said, a lot of budding restauranteurs open in some of these places because they are cheap to rent. You aren’t the only one to think the place has problems as a restaurant space. The landlord has to cut rents to get people into these places. And the prospect of getting a really cheap space with is too attactive for the guy who has always wanted to make gourmet hamburgers for a living. Once the burgers suck, the guy closes and the ‘curse’ goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/26 "2010-06-05T13:19:27Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > I suppose that brings up the question, how does a place with _ **terrible** _ food stay in business for so long? There’s a mexican place here in town that has been here over thirty years. It’s on one of the busiest streets in town, and yet I hardly ever see anyone in there. I’ve eaten there maybe twice, and the food is really bad. And yet it is still open. I think it must be a front for some other illegal business. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/27 "2010-06-05T13:25:09Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > There’s a mexican place here in town that has been here over thirty years. It’s on one of the busiest streets in town, and yet I hardly ever see anyone in there. I’ve eaten there maybe twice, and the food is really bad. And yet it is still open. > > I think it must be a front for some other illegal business. There’s a Chinese restaurant like that by me. Been there as long as I can remember, but I hardly ever see cars there. At lunch there will be maybe 3 cars in the lot, but the rest of the day there aren’t any (not even employee cars). How they’ve been hanging on so long, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/28 "2010-06-07T16:53:25Z")
There was one like that near me; a restaurant would be open there for a year or two, then it would sit vacant for years, then something else would open, repeat 4 or 5 times. They finally tore the building down and now it’s an empty lot. Difficult access can keep customers away. Bad food or prices that are too high will also do it. This place had poor access and questionable food. The building was old too, and probably infested. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/29 "2010-06-07T17:10:29Z")
There’s cursed, and then there’s cursed: > **[Brown's Chicken massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown%27s_Chicken_massacre)** > > The Brown's Chicken Massacre was a mass murder that occurred on January 8, 1993, in Palatine, Illinois, when two robbers shot and killed seven employees at a Brown's Chicken fast-food restaurant. > The case remained unsolved for nearly nine years, until one of the assailants was implicated by his girlfriend in 2002. Police used DNA samples from the murder scene to match one of the suspects, Juan Luna. Luna was put on trial in 2007, found guilty of seven counts of first degree murder, and sentenced... I’m just astonished anyone was willing to open _any_ business in that building, much less a restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/30 "2010-06-07T18:27:35Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Anthony Bourdain discusses this in his book _Kitchen Confidential_. For one thing, opening a restaurant is one of the riskiest, most expensive things you could ever do. Something like 80% of all restaurants fail. The reasons are many. Bad food, bad management, bad staff, bad service, or some combination of or all of the above. Owners and management, when they realize their business is failing, start doing desperate “quick fix” things like changing the menu, starting/stopping breakfast/lunch/dinner service, offering deep discounts, etc. These things never work, especially constantly changing the menu… Don’t forget changing the hours of operation and/or days of operation frequently, so that the customers never know when you’re open or not. Another thing that owners of failing restaurants often do is to get upset and take it out on their customers. There was a Blimpie’s in our town that was failing, and the owner used to vent every time I went in there. I started actively avoiding the place because it was such a downer. I go to a place for lunch now that seems to be circling the drain, and the owner is doing the same thing. I’m a regular, so he seems to think that he can vent and complain to me about how his business is going. There were three different sandwich shops that opened in our town. Each time, the owners went through the same pattern. When they first opened, they were extremely motivated and very upbeat and friendly. A few months later, they seemed subdued and little depressed. A few months later, they were morose and didn’t smile at all. It was about this time that the hours would start changing–finding out that they were closed on Mondays or weekends, or closed at 2 p.m. instead of 7 p.m. If they were open, the owners actually seemed hostile. Shortly thereafter, you’d see the “Out of Business” sign. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/31 "2010-06-07T18:30:34Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > There’s a spot like that in my neighborhood and I can be pretty sure it’s a traffic issue. The street is very busy at evening rush hour which ought to be the main time for any real business at whatever eating establishment tries to make it there. > > The problem is that both sets of two-lane traffic are usually creep and crawl through at least three changes at the next major intersections. So anybody in traffic is thoroughly pissed by the time they get even with this spot. Outgoing lanes are the worst for the delays, but the incoming side has the issue of (if they wanted to do so) crossing the outgoing lanes to get into the lot for the eatery. Not many in those lanes are courteous enough to risk another light change just to accommodate somebody wanting to cut across. > > Nobody has the patience, regardless of the food quality, which has been great through at least four changes of hands in as many years, to fight the traffic problems. So eventually the owners get the picture and move on. All I can figure is that the realtor who manages to foist this place off on the next owner talks some fine shit and downplays the traffic issue. And prospective owners are either not doing any homework or scouting or they misread the seriousness of the traffic. I’ll bet that the prospective owners visit the place with the realtor during the day when traffic is light, instead of during meal times when traffic is heavy. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/32 "2010-06-07T18:55:32Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I’ll bet that the prospective owners visit the place with the realtor during the day when traffic is light, instead of during meal times when traffic is heavy. That would be my guess. Either that or just look at some photos online or something. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/33 "2010-06-07T19:23:55Z")
The other reason why these places fail: chain restaurants (like Chilis, Outback, etc.). There is no way an independent guy can match these chain’s buying power and advertising. They also serve large portions at low prices. So Al’s Steakhouse cannot offer a better product-plus, if the cook at Al’s fails to show up, the manager has to get behind the counter-he serves 20-30 burned steaks one night, word gets around…and “Al’s” is history. ---
**Author:** ![that\_darn\_cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/59ef9b/32.png) [@that\_darn\_cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/that_darn_cat)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/34 "2010-06-07T19:35:45Z")
In my college days there was a “cursed” restaurant about 2 blocks from the main dining hall. It started as a Denny’s, closed and then was a succession of the same sort of quasi-diner sit down places, all independent. Thing is, that kind of food could be readily had at the dining hall, in nearly unlimited quantity, and most of the students has already paid for it. So who’s gonna eat there? Not only that, it was practically on campus, so when school was out the traffic was practically nil. I never understood why the new owners kept lining up to make the same mistake, a $6 trip to the dining hall would have gone a long way to illuminate them, ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/35 "2010-06-07T20:33:04Z")
There was a place like that where I grew up, but it wasn’t just a restaurant. In one ten-year span it was a hair salon, a Dress Barn, a gift boutique, and several different restaurants. Not all in a row either, I mean people knocked down and then re-built kitchens in there year after year. I’ve always thought it was because of the smell. There was a strange sort of musty smell in that building. Most of my friends said they couldn’t smell it, but I’m betting subconsciously they did. People said it “wasn’t clean” but couldn’t point to why. So that was always my theory. It’s been a Fudrucker’s for a long while now (5-6 years?) and the smell is gone. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/36 "2010-06-07T22:13:55Z")
I suspect that in many neighborhoods the restaurant industry is cannibalistic- there is no excess demand for restaurants, so any new restaurant must necessarily steal customers from the old ones. Old entrenched businesses tend to win that fight- they’ve got at least a few loyal customers, people know the menu and know what they like, and the new business is still trying to pay off a start-up loan. New restaurants have to draw in a customer base quickly- the only advantage they have is that they’re new and exciting, and that’s not much of an advantage and fleeting anyway. They almost have to have a gimmick- otherwise, who’s going to come? New businesses have to create a reason for customers to come, and it can’t just be being slightly better than the competition. They have to provide something radically different- both better and different- or everyone will stay away in droves. Most gimmicks are basically gambles- cheap drinks, funky themes, different style of food- and gambles carry risk. Many risks do not pay off. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/37 "2010-06-07T23:16:42Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Sometimes, too, a spot might be easy to get in or out of when you’re going one direction, but it’s on the wrong side of the road for the time of day. It might be a great breakfast location, but be on the wrong side of the road to stop by after work to eat in or pick up some takeout, for instance, or the other way around. If you have a lunch and dinner restaurant on the way in to where most people work, they aren’t likely to want to go there, eat or pick up dinner, and then fight traffic to make a left turn. This is especially critical when there’s a median in the way, and a commuter will have to make a right turn, go down the road half a mile, and then make a U turn. > > If you have a breakfast place that’s on the right side of the road for people going to work, though, then you’re golden, especially if you’re a chain. > > It’s also quite possible that all of the unsuccessful restaurants were vastly undercapitalized. I know that a lot of people think it’s pretty easy to open and run a restaurant, but it really isn’t. I think even if you can exclude a rash of under-capitalization, stream of bad managers, etc., you can still find that actual locations are ‘cursed’ or generally bad locations for restaurants. In addition to the location just being bad per se, like you said, you have to consider how the interior of the location might come into play or be affected by the exterior location in the neighborhood. Maybe the area would be great for local workers looking for a quick lunch/breakfast or takeout, but the place is too big for that and better suited for a lot of tables who’re taking their time eating (relatively). Even with a lot of traffic in and out, the fixed costs of the restaurant may be too much to become successful. If you could magically build an ideal restaurant in the same location, rather than lease an existing building, something 2/3rds the size might provide the revenue per square foot needed to survive. Or contrarily, you have a place in a neighborhood where people want to drop a lot of money and enjoy a several course meal. Unfortunately, you leased a space that was too small to fit enough tables to bring in the sales you need to cover all your costs. Everyone in the neighborhood and all the other restaurants are fine dining, so a fast food place with more turns isn’t going to do well, but the fine dining establishment can’t bring in enough money either without more tables. But the size is what it is, so everyone who tries fails. ---
**Author:** ![Leiko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Leiko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leiko)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/38 "2010-06-07T23:53:25Z")
Sometimes, it’s just a matter of equipment quality, electric wiring or kitchen layout. If a kitchen has a bad layout (causing cross contamination or discouraging good washing), or the coolers and freezers never work as well as they should, the place is going to do badly in health inspections no matter how hard the employees work to stay up to code. Money will be lost when people who check the inspection reports decide not to come, more will be lost in product waste, and if they put money into fixing up the equipment, there’s no guarantee the improvements will do enough for them to recover. That’s my mom’s theory, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/39 "2010-06-08T02:11:01Z")
I know an entire building that is cursed. Three businesses in there failed, none of them stayed open longer than a year. I worked it when it was a Pizza Hut, and it folded like 10 years ago. No business that moved in afterwards (to the old PH location or either side’s neighbor) lasted longer than a year. Two out of three were restaurants, but the third was some other business. Currently, 2 out of three are vacant. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934/40 "2010-06-08T03:49:38Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Anthony Bourdain discusses this in his book _Kitchen Confidential_. For one thing, opening a restaurant is one of the riskiest, most expensive things you could ever do. Something like 80% of all restaurants fail. Well, you may have heard the old joke: Q: How do you make a small fortune in the restaurant business? A: Start with a large fortune. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-restaurant-locations-cursed/541934.md?page=3)