# Why are some right wing leaders and spokespeople toying with the idea of civil war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381 "2009-04-17T04:13:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/1 "2009-04-17T04:13:11Z")
I’m sure I don’t need to bring cites. Hannity ran the pole. Glenn Beck dedicated an episode to the idea. Rick Perry slips in secession talk into his interviews and speeches. Signs at the “tea bag parties” reinforced the theme. A leaked (or “leaked”) memo is read (incorrectly) as fictitiously projecting a revolutionary message onto the right wing. I don’t believe for a second that any republican leader or thinke thinks for a second that civil war would be a good idea, or is at all likely. But it seems there’s some coordination going on around the message that something like this could be on the horizon. And I’d like to know why that message is being put out there. Who gains what? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/2 "2009-04-17T04:28:34Z")
During the Bush years the 'Pubs dabbled in what I like to term “totalitarianism-lite”. That is, trying to evoke the ideological absolutism of a revolutionary one-party state without the actual martial law, secret police and mass executions. Now that the Dems are in the White House, the Pubs are posturing. It’s about as credible as the left circa 1968 crying “Revolution Now!” because Nixon won the election. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/3 "2009-04-17T04:31:13Z")
Uh, yes, a cite would be useful. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/4 "2009-04-17T05:26:57Z")
They are speaking their truth and showing us who they really are and what they are really like. I can only hope that this will put them forever out of the mainstream of politics and that they will be shunned. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/5 "2009-04-17T05:44:04Z")
Didn’t a lot of leftists in the Sixties do the same thing? I mean, Abbie Hoffman had an entire chapter in Steal This Book devoted to talking about different kinds of rifles and pistols and how to use them, etc. There’s even a paragraph where he’s like, “the Springfield, Mauser, Enfield, and Russian 7.62 rifles are all good buys at about 20 dollars.” HA! That line makes me chuckle to myself. But he pretty much spelled out explicitly that there should be a massive (and violent) overthrow of “the pig,” “the man,” “Amerika,” etc, and his philosophy was very, very popular. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/6 "2009-04-17T05:49:06Z")
Enh. Abbie Hoffman didn’t have multiple shows, and wasn’t a (fairly) powerful elected official either (my point being that Hoffman didn’t have the same stature or influence). I think what Beck and Perry and many others are doing is a bit different. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/7 "2009-04-17T05:50:45Z")
But the mindless enthusiasm of their disciples is comparable, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/8 "2009-04-17T05:54:58Z")
Invoking the prospect of civil war implies that current issues are incredibly important. It implies that the Democrats are so horribly wrong that it’s worth destroying the country to oppose them. So vote for Republicans in the mid-term elections next year. What else are the Republicans going to say? _“Well, let’s give the Democrats a shot at running the country for a while and see how things go. If it doesn’t work out, you can vote us back in and we’ll take another shot at running things.”_ Not really inspiring. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/9 "2009-04-17T06:18:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Didn’t a lot of leftists in the Sixties do the same thing? The leftists in general and especially the extremists were never as powerful as the Right is. And more importantly, the 60s were a long, long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/10 "2009-04-17T07:05:05Z")
It’s just a bunch of whiny, incredibly sore losers. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/11 "2009-04-17T07:38:28Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > It’s just a bunch of whiny, incredibly sore losers. I know that as a lefter, I would have no problem with the red states going on their own way, as long as some kind of reasonable deal could be made allowing freedom to travel between the two nations. I’d embrace the idea of oldschool Republicans getting (mostly) out of my government. The righties don’t really want to secede, though. Their states depend too much on blue states, and they know we would still be doing pretty well without them. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/12 "2009-04-17T08:12:26Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > Uh, yes, a cite would be useful. Tom Delay, former House Majority Leader, [outlines a scenario whereupon Texas could secede](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/04/delay_offers_new_theory_of_texas_secession.php). This followed the remarks of Governor Perry of Texas who observed that while, “There’s absolutely no reason to dissolve it, …But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, who knows what may come of that.” So the Texas GOP position is that maybe we’ll have a civil war and maybe we won’t, depending upon whether the Feds rub them the wrong way. Who knows? [Cite](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/04/perry-dont-get-the-wrong-impression--no-secession-for-now.php?ref=fp2). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/13 "2009-04-17T10:59:28Z")
It makes 'em feel tough, like every guy’s fantasy that he could be Batman under the right circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/14 "2009-04-17T11:20:49Z")
Isn’t calling for secession akin to treason? Particular if you’re a governor? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/15 "2009-04-17T11:24:25Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > But the mindless enthusiasm of their disciples is comparable, I think. Perhaps, but it’s been all of 4 months since they relinquished the power they had for 8 years. It’s really just a mix of Revtim and Bryan Eckers observations. They’re a bunch of whiny losers who want to feel big and tough by threatening something that will never be allowed to happen. They’ve spent 8 years marginalizing their opposition, they can’t imagine a world where the next 4 isn’t spent with them completely powerless. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/16 "2009-04-17T11:58:59Z")
I’m of a mind similar to Mosiers - don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. There needn’t be a civil war, because those states aren’t worth fighting for. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/17 "2009-04-17T12:00:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Isn’t calling for secession akin to treason? Particular if you’re a governor? Someone (a guest being interviewed by Ed from The Ed Show?) suggested that he be charged. Chris Matthews suggested Perry is “all hat and no head” and that it’s cuckoo talk. However, Tom DeLay said that there is a provision that allows for them splitting into multiple states: [Can Texas Divide Itself into Five Separate States? | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp) It also cites additional language that forbids an existing state from splitting into multiples, so I agree with Chris Matthews – it’s Cuckoo Talk. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/18 "2009-04-17T12:50:39Z")
Still, it’s just red meat for the converted. And it opens them to SUCH backlash if handled right. Imagine, if taken seriously, that some prominent administration official came out with this line. > [@](#): > > _From an idealized public official drafted by me._ > > They said opposition wasn’t patriotic. Now that they’re opposed they promote civil war and the dissolution of the union. How is that not unamerican? How is that not unpatriotic? > > I say these people have shown that they don’t believe in America. I say these men and women have shown their true colors for not wanting the union to succeed. I say these men and women…leaders of the Republican party in positions of influence and policy…are treasonous in their speech. Clearly, they no longer believe America is worth fighting for or working to perfect. > > Civil War. They advocate civil war and secession. Remember, my friends, that the last time men and women in positions of political power, leadership and influence advocated such things as civil war and secession it was to defend a great evil. The men then were defending evil and promoting the destruction of our beloved country…our homeland. Now these men and women are promoting the dissolution and destruction of our country. Are these men evil, too? I’d like to think they are just misguided…but I just don’t know. > > The rest of you out there? Continue to have faith in the power, strength and good will of the United States of America. I continue to do so and will never abandon the country I love. The country that has protected me and provided for me. The land and people to whom I owe everything from my freedom to my very life. I hope everyone out there can join me in realizing that the United States and its ideals are strong enough to overcome and ignore the hate-filled ramblings of evil men apparently dedicated to its overthrow. > > Let us discard these men and women who hate us so. Let us move forward in the spirit of the United States and all it represents. God bless you and God Bless the United States of America. Hmm. Not bad for off the cuff. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/19 "2009-04-17T13:15:17Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It also cites additional language that forbids an existing state from splitting into multiples, so I agree with Chris Matthews – it’s Cuckoo Talk. At the end of the Snopes article, I see the opposite–a citation of language in the Constitution that says all states can split with consent of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/20 "2009-04-17T13:16:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Isn’t calling for secession akin to treason? Particular if you’re a governor? Yeah, but he didn’t call for secession, he just mentioned the notion of secession. Paraphrasing: “I’m not saying we should secede. But who knows what these crazy mofos in my constituency might do if they get mad enough.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381.md?page=2)