# Why are some right wing leaders and spokespeople toying with the idea of civil war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381 "2009-04-17T04:13:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/81 "2009-04-18T18:08:12Z")
Lincoln hell - they’ve repudiated TR, Ike and even a lot of Reagan in the past decade. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/82 "2009-04-18T18:18:37Z")
This is a natural part of the reorganization of a political party. A party that falls behind the time and that faces a lot of losing before rebuilding itself goes through three stages: 1. “The voters were wrong.” 2. “The system is wrong.” 3. “We were wrong.” They’re at Stage 1. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/83 "2009-04-18T18:21:26Z")
Because liberals are in favor of big government, which makes them the enemy of freedom. Now that they’re in power, who knows how far they’ll go. It might get so bad that it will be the duty of good, clear-thinking Americans to make a more determined stand, like those brave men of Bunker Hill, Lexington, and Concord. In Fagachusetts, SSR. Oh, hell. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/84 "2009-04-18T20:37:05Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > So if we look at the [Purple States" Map of America](http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2008/) (which is a more accurate reflection of how the voting went in 2008) which states aren’t worth fighting for? Nashville helps to vote in the best President we’ve had since Lincoln and you want to send us out with Tennessee because East Tennessee is so damned red? Give us a break. > > Remember, a state can be “red” by a margin of a few votes. Tennessee went for McCain - how did that help Obama? Tennessee couldn’t even get it up to vote for Al Gore, ushering in 8 years of W. If Tennessee wants to secede, I think they’d be fine as a relatively liberal state in Conservativalia. Of course, those who want to live in America would be welcome back. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/85 "2009-04-18T20:43:53Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Tennessee went for McCain - how did that help Obama? The electoral vote system is not the fault of the citizens of Nashville. This is crazy talk. I can’t believe the universal reaction to the very mention of secession isn’t “Issue decided in 1865. Next?” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/86 "2009-04-18T21:19:48Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > Yes. Rick Perry is trying to make sure he gets enough support in the Republican primary to beat a potential challenge from Kay Bailey Hutchison. He was able to beat the anti-gay marriage drum loud enough in 2005 and lock up the far right when he invited gays to leave the state. He can’t re-ban gay marriage for the 5th time this election so he needs to find another tactic. The Texas vs Washington shtick might be enough for him to with the Republican primary and another term as governor. An article in Huffington says 18 % of Texans are for seceding. That seems like a lot but there must be another segment that finds the idea repulsive. I wonder if a dumb stance like that will actually be a political positive? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/87 "2009-04-20T16:26:23Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > An article in Huffington says 18 % of Texans are for seceding. That seems like a lot but there must be another segment that finds the idea repulsive. I wonder if a dumb stance like that will actually be a political positive? Yes, but out of those 18%, a full 15 % thought the question was: “Are you in favour of succeeding?” ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/88 "2009-04-22T15:17:13Z")
Consider the ramifications of a revolution or the civil unrest that would be sure to follow secession. We would be driven from our homes and creature comforts to fight a war; digging fox holes, laying ordinance, _killing other citizens._ My standard of living would have to plummet, my personal freedoms would have to be more than threatened, they’d have to be severely curtailed before I would even consider resorting to armed conflict with other Americans. I am not ready in practical or principled terms to fight any war, let alone one that would pit me against friends and neighbors who hold different convictions. So no, I don’t thing anyone is proposing any kind of civil war at this time. However, it’s worth noting that as a Libertarian, lesbian, and staunch defender of the second amendment, I am virulently opposed to the values, philosophy, and policies espoused by the current administration. When I discuss these things with like-minded individuals we agree that our tipping point, the thing that actually would send us toward armed conflict, is this: If a government official came to our homes and demanded we surrender our firearms. Any time a pro-gun control administration has power we wonder how much closer we are to some sort of dystopic future wherein gun controls become so strict that we are forced to seriously confront our personal line in the sand. It’s sobering. Right now Libertarians and Conservatives are chattering at each other looking for reassurance that we’re not alone in these musings. It’s the kind of talk that makes me comfortable, we may be in the minority at the moment but we’re not alone in our convictions either. If I _did_ feel utterly alone, I’d probably be paranoid and start withdrawing from society. Instead I’m sitting around with friends saying, “Hey it’s not that bad, we’re nowhere near any reason for armed conflict. Let’s just wait and see how a more Leftist government works out.” Because I don’t thing President Obama or our Liberal congress have done anything to merit taking up arms. Theirs is just a different approach to running the nation and while I’m not overly optimistic about the success of their policies, I don’t think we’re going to fail as a nation or slide into anarchy any time soon. We’re all just reassuring each other that if things truly went to hell in a handcart, we wouldn’t be alone. That’s hardly cause for alarm and it certainly doesn’t merit the kind of overt government scrutiny implied elements of the Patriot Act or the infamous DHS summary report. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/89 "2009-04-22T21:59:23Z")
> [@Chopper9760](#): > > Any time a pro-gun control administration has power we wonder how much closer we are to some sort of dystopic future wherein gun controls become so strict that we are forced to seriously confront our personal line in the sand. It’s sobering. If you haven’t seen it already, a recent thread raised this issue: [Would you have shot the gun confiscators when they came to your door? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513769) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/90 "2009-04-23T16:24:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > All I have to say is that a party that advocates secession has lost all pretenses to being the party of Lincoln. WHAT “party” has advocated secession? People are making a big deal of a stupid off-hand remark by Texas governor Rick Perry. Perry has been governor for 8 years, and has NEVER alluded to secession before, and has never introduced legislation to bring it about. There is NO secessionist movement in Texas. Texas isn’t going anywhere, even if some on this board would like it to. VERMONT, on the other hand, DID have a secessionist movement a few years ago, one that SDMB liberals actually sympathized with. Presumably, now that the Lightworker is President, that secessionist movement will wither away… at least until the next Republican President is elected. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/91 "2009-04-23T16:29:58Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > WHAT “party” has advocated secession? The Alaska Independence Party, whose adherents have included the husband of the GOP’s nominee for VP of the US. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/92 "2009-04-23T19:54:55Z")
People in Vermont have been talking about secession for years. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/93 "2009-04-23T20:06:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > People in Vermont have been talking about secession for years. This appears to be the new meme. Did they say this on Fox News? It’s nonsense, of course. My family is from VT, I’ve been back to the Northeast Kingdom regularly, and I can’t recall ever hearing talk of secession. My wife did make the mistake once of suggesting that maple candy tastes like brown sugar in front of my grandmother, and that was the most uppity I’ve ever seen a Vermonter. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/94 "2009-04-23T20:13:37Z")
[Second Vermont Republic](http://www.vermontrepublic.org/)…they seem like typical whack jobs but they do have a web site. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/95 "2009-04-23T20:20:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This appears to be the new meme. Did they say this on Fox News? It’s nonsense, of course. My family is from VT, I’ve been back to the Northeast Kingdom regularly, and I can’t recall ever hearing talk of secession. > > My wife did make the mistake once of suggesting that maple candy tastes like brown sugar in front of my grandmother, and that was the most uppity I’ve ever seen a Vermonter. I don’t have cable so it’s been on the network news. You can look up [Second Vermont Republic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vermont_Republic#Controversies) on wiki. I see \*\*xtisme \*\*beat me to the name of the group. They were trying to get a referendum voted on in 2008 but I don’t think it got far. ---
**Author:** ![HorseloverFat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8e8cbc/32.png) [@HorseloverFat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HorseloverFat)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/96 "2009-04-25T04:03:59Z")
Tough guy alpha male posturing gets conservative votes. Things like sane reasoning or compromises is for sissies. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/97 "2009-04-25T04:46:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ll remind everyone again that Montana has a Democratic governor and two Democratic senators, plus one of the two houses of our legislature is Democrat-controlled. We are not an inherently red state; we’re a particularly confusing shade of purple. Thank you for reminding me. I tend to lump it in with the rest of the rural mountain west. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/98 "2009-04-25T04:59:27Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Leaving aside what folks like Kucinich were doing during the previous administration… As I recall, he was serving his district in Congress, not moving to Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381/99 "2009-04-25T06:11:31Z")
QUOTE=astorian;11068422]VERMONT, on the other hand, DID have a secessionist movement a few years ago, one that SDMB liberals actually sympathized with. [/quote] Er, what? I haven’t heard shit about this on the Dope. > [@](#): > > Presumably, now that the Lightworker is President, that secessionist movement will wither away… If you would stop repeating stupid fucking rightard memes, that would be great. Oh, who am I kidding… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-some-right-wing-leaders-and-spokespeople-toying-with-the-idea-of-civil-war/493381.md?page=4)