# Why are Swedes so much richer in the USA than in Sweden? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761 "2012-09-15T04:15:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/61 "2012-09-16T07:30:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > For someone who I’ve seen flip out over anyone saying anything remotely negative about South Africa, I think a post like this is especially hypocritical and quite honestly shameful given it is GD. Well I’ve never flipped out over anything negatively said about South Africa, and I think what he said has a lot of merit. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/62 "2012-09-16T07:47:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This would also explain the long running economic rivalry between Sweden and Brazil. Median income for Brazilians in the US in 2007 was somewhere between $51-61k… Not too shabby. [Page 10.](http://web.gc.cuny.edu/lastudies/latinodataprojectreports/Brazilians%20in%20the%20U.S.%201980%20-%202007.pdf) Median income in Brazil seems to be about a quarter or a fifth of that. The theory holds! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/63 "2012-09-16T09:43:13Z")
Is there anyplace in the world where an ethnic group is doing better in their country of origin than in the US? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/64 "2012-09-16T10:01:42Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > For someone who I’ve seen flip out over anyone saying anything remotely negative about South Africa, I think a post like this is especially hypocritical and quite honestly shameful given it is GD. I _don’t_ flip out over every negative thing said about South Africa- I flip out when people lie. Or when South Africa’s used as a completely _non sequitur_ lazy-ass _tu quoque_ response to anything negative said about America by me. Like you just so-very-fumblingly tried to do. What the ever-living fuck does South Africa have to do with an all-American/Swedish debate, for fuck’s sake? And what’s hypocritical or shameful about pointing out that White privilege is a pertinent thing? I wasn’t even the first one, but did you call anyone else’s posts Pit-worthy epithets? Nope, because you like the low-hanging fruit. When have I ever “flipped out” about _just_ truthful negative things about South Africa, like our crime rates? Please, as you say, this is GD - cite up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/65 "2012-09-16T10:41:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Is there anyplace in the world where an ethnic group is doing better in their country of origin than in the US? Not sure - probably some of the Asian groupings like Japanese-Americans or Korean-Americans, where the tiger economies caught up after post-war emigration? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/66 "2012-09-16T11:26:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > For someone who I’ve seen flip out over anyone saying anything remotely negative about South Africa, I think a post like this is especially hypocritical and quite honestly shameful given it is GD. When we are talking about the accumulated economic achievement of an ethinc group that arrived in the late 1800s-early 1900s, I think it is fair to point out that for a lot of the time since then, being white meant getting the cream half of opportunity. > [@adaher](#): > > Is there anyplace in the world where an ethnic group is doing better in their country of origin than in the US? Hard to say. You’d need to do a comparison that also included all the people who no longer identifies themselves as members of the group. Becuse their family situation is too confusing and messed up for them to know. People like that will be present in the country of origin, so if you exclude them from the US sample, you are selecting a more successful average to represent the US. Norwegians seem a safe bet, though. If you define “doing better” as having better lives, Scandinavia, but it gets blurry. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/67 "2012-09-16T16:03:29Z")
Yes, America is a place where hard-working and ambitious immigrants can make a good life for themselves. We were also the first to land on the moon. We invent more amazing shit than anybody else in the world. And we can do better. Being number one is good enough if you’re tired and worn out. We’re just getting warmed up. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/68 "2012-09-16T16:16:19Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Any American who is more than a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant, is still full-blooded, and still identifies with their country of origin is unusual. Have you been to the Rust Belt, Boston, NYC or Philadelphia? ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/69 "2012-09-16T16:22:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Is there anyplace in the world where an ethnic group is doing better in their country of origin than in the US? Maybe Iceland? Most Icelandic immigrants to the US settled down in the upper midwest; far northern Minnesota and North Dakota. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/70 "2012-09-16T16:32:29Z")
It’s ludicrous that “degree of whiteness” has anything to do with the success of immigrant groups in America. The Irish are extremely white and were discriminated against for some 60-100 years based on race and religious prejudice. It’s also a ludicrous claim that the Swedes are somehow the “epitome” of whiteness anymore than say, the large wave of German immigrants or the large wave of Irish immigrants we had. That’s the sort of thing, that if I had said about some African ethnic group being the “epitome of blackness” people would think I was being a racist idiot. If you want a real reason as to why Swedish-Americans are wealthier than Swedes it is almost certainly the fact that they predominantly immigrated to parts of the country that have higher than average standard of living and per capita income than the rest of the United States. The Swedish-Americans were not evenly distributed around the country, in particular they are in low numbers in the poorest regions of the country which is generally much of the old Confederacy and certain areas of Appalachia. The two largest Swedish-American populations are in Minnesota and California (combined that’s about 25% of all Swedish-Americans) and both of those states are higher income than either the U.S. average or the U.S. median income. After that, the top ten states with largest Swedish populations, all of those ten except for Texas and Michigan have higher than average and median income (and Texas is only a bit below the average and is actually above the median national income.) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/71 "2012-09-16T16:45:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Is there anyplace in the world where an ethnic group is doing better in their country of origin than in the US? Most of the Gulf states, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/72 "2012-09-16T17:08:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not saying you’re wrong, but I’d have to see a cite to believe that. Okay, as far as I can tell, my original statement (about education and motivation for emigrating) was incorrect. However, Swedish immigrants did have an easier time compared to most immigrants. A large percentage of them came over in the 19th century due to crop failures in Sweden, and they were farmers who mostly settled in the Midwest (Great Plains up to Minnesota). [Here is where they are distributed today](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Swedish_Americans_2000_Census.svg). Swedish immigrants were seen as much closer to “real Americans” than German or Irish immigrants. By the late 19th century, however, the demographics of Swedish emigration shifted somewhat toward younger bachelors getting jobs in cities. There was another wave of emigration in the early 20th century. The problem of mass emigration and income inequality influenced Sweden to transform in to the welfare state that we know it as today. Cite: A Folk Divided: Homeland Swedes and Swedish Americans, 1840-1940 By H. Arnold Barton Conclusion: I cannot reasonably conclude why Swedish-Americans became wealthier than their other immigrant counterparts, or Swedes in Sweden based on emigration patterns. However, the fact that they became a largely land-holding class and their concentration in a relatively wealthy state like Minnesota certainly helps. And the fact that they faced relatively little social discrimination compared to Germans or Irish certainly helped their upward mobility. That only explains why they are wealthier compared to other Americans. But I think the gap between Sweden and America can be largely explained by just the fact that America is a rich country with great natural resources and a tremendous economy of scale. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/73 "2012-09-16T19:29:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think a case can be made that happiness is the ultimate thing a people strive for, but it’s not something that can be addressed through public policy. Whereas income and living standards can be. > > What I’m interested in is what public policies can Sweden pursue to close the income disparity between Swedes and Swedish-Americans. This has got to be one of the silliest statements I have other seen in GD. Why the heck can we not address giving people the highest possible quality of life? Why do we have to conveniently cow-tow to how the dumb way that you want it to be defined? The goal of our government is to serve as a collective voice for what we want, not to make sure that we all die with as much stuff as possible! And, as has already been pointed out, there are big issues in comparing median incomes across societies where some people pay for health care and some don’t. Things get even worse when you don’t like at medians but instead at averages, since on average the people in a room containing 19 homeless men and Bill Gates are billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/74 "2012-09-16T19:34:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The real answer to this question has nothing to do with socialism versus capitalism. It is very simple: good-looking people are better paid, and we ethnic Swedes are a good looking bunch. When we’re among the vast number of “uggos” (that’s the scientific term for Danes and other non-Scandanavians) in America, we seem even more hot. Swedes in Sweden aren’t beautiful, they are just average. [Cite on beauty’s perks.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2061405/It-pays-pretty-Professor-s-20-year-study-reveals-good-looking-employees-paid-better-perks.html) Having spent 3 great weeks in Copenhagen one summer many years ago at NORDITA, which is right next to a huge park where the Danish women sunbathed topless, I think you ought to be nicer to the Danes! I don’t remember many “uggos”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761/75 "2012-09-16T19:35:18Z")
So that’s a “No” on the cite, **Martin**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-swedes-so-much-richer-in-the-usa-than-in-sweden/634761.md?page=3)