# Why are teachers considered intellectually inferior? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367 "2005-12-27T22:44:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/41 "2005-12-28T20:10:20Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > There shouldn’t be any pure education programs. Education below certain grades should be supported by a cognitive psychology track as part of a real psych degree, as opposed to a fluffy/faux ed degree. When subject matter is to be taught, a core degree in that actual subject is the gold standard, with a supplemental educational track tossed in. And that is the thinking that has led to the modern-day student. The idea is that elementary teachers to not need to know the subjects they teach but merely need to be a caretaker until the kids get to a secondary school. “When subject matter is actually taught”? Are you implying that some suject (like math or science) are not taught in primary grades? Sadly you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/42 "2005-12-28T21:53:58Z")
> [@SaintCad](#): > > “When subject matter is actually taught”? Are you implying that some suject (like math or science) are not taught in primary grades? Sadly you’re right. In what school district in the developed world is math not taught in primary grades? I’m seeing much anecdotal evidence in this thread, and little real evidence. Which is typical of any thread about teaching, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/43 "2005-12-29T00:41:16Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I hate that. It disgusts and depresses me. But it’s only part of the story. The other part of the story is that there are people trying to improve the state of elementary education; I figure that if I’m going to enter this field, it’ll be my job to hook up with them and try to work alongside them to professionalize the field. > > Daniel It’s too bad the field needs to be professionalized; I thought it already was one, what with required credentials, degrees, and state board certification. I can’t say that I ever had a teacher in high school who didn’t seem to thoroughly know his or her stuff, but the idea that most teachers, generally, don’t know much is not new at all. I’ve seen _Blackboard Jungle_ numerous times, and never failed to cringe when Glenn Ford says essentially that he wasn’t smart enought to be a doctor, lawyer, or engineer so he chose to devote himself to molding the next generation of minds. And I’m not even a teacher. But if I were, I’d be glad to have you entering my profession, based on your posts here, over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/44 "2005-12-29T00:48:14Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > There shouldn’t be any pure education programs. Education below certain grades should be supported by a cognitive psychology track as part of a real psych degree, as opposed to a fluffy/faux ed degree. When subject matter is to be taught, a core degree in that actual subject is the gold standard, with a supplemental educational track tossed in. What proportion of teachers have only education degrees? I thought the usual route was to get at least a bachelor’s degree in some subject like history or English, and then do some postgraduate work in education to get a certificate, or perhaps a master’s degree. I know that UCLA, for example, does not offer an education major, but can still train you as a teacher in five years or so by having you go through the process I just described. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/45 "2005-12-29T00:58:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In what school district in the developed world is math not taught in primary grades? > > I’m seeing much anecdotal evidence in this thread, and little real evidence. Which is typical of any thread about teaching, actually. As a math teacher and a special ed teacher, I’ve had a lot of experience with elementary teachers that do not teach math (or only minimally). The truth is that there is stuff going on in classrooms that administrator don’t (or don’t want to) know about in terms of implementing the curriculum. As for evidence, I’m actually writing an article tenatively called “Does the State of California Care About Math Education?”. My evidence points to the answer of no. I’ll just give one example. A few years ago, Calif. implemented the RICA (Reading Instruction Competence Assessment) to see if elementary teachers could teach kids how to read. At the same time, the state tried to implement a MICA to see if elementary teachers could teach math. The pilot testing indicated that most elementary teachers would fail the MICA. As a result, Calif. dropped the plan for a MICA requirement for a multiple-subject credential. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/46 "2005-12-29T01:07:04Z")
> [@gooftroopag](#): > > “He’s a professor, he doesn’t understand the intricacies of real world engineering,” I’m not any kind of teacher, nor an engineer, but I have to ask if this attitude might not be justified in many fields. By definition, a professor of engineering (or anything else) works in a different milieu from that of a practitioner in industry. Therefore he/she’d naturally be out of place, at least temporarily, if suddenly thrust into a job outside academia. Or consider this: if you were arrested for murder (unjustly, of course), would you want the dean of Harvard Law defending you, or a top-flight practitioner from your city? I think you’d you’d want the latter, but it certainly doesn’t make the dean inferior intellectually. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/47 "2005-12-29T01:17:16Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > I think that a lot of people have a fundamental misconception about teaching: they think it’s about the material: that if you can’t write, you teach writing. If you love science, you teach science. I didn’t go into teaching (and I am plenty intelligent!) because of a love of the matierial. If it were that, I’d have gone on to grad school, and I could have done well there–I was certainly among the inner circle being “groomed” for grad school in my liberal arts undergraduate days, and was widely seen as “selling out” for going into education. I think that just strengthens my point. To be an effective teacher, you only require a competant level of intelligence. It’s much more important to have a desire to teach and the interpersonal skills to deal with children. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/48 "2005-12-29T01:21:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think that just strengthens my point. To be an effective teacher, you only require a competant level of intelligence. Define ‘effective teacher’ and ‘competenet level of intellingence’ and we might get somewhere. Otherwise, you’re making a statement which nobody can argue with, because it’s defined in your own terms. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/49 "2005-12-29T03:24:39Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > There shouldn’t be any pure education programs. Education below certain grades should be supported by a cognitive psychology track as part of a real psych degree, as opposed to a fluffy/faux ed degree. When subject matter is to be taught, a core degree in that actual subject is the gold standard, with a supplemental educational track tossed in. Funny, when I was in college and grad school I heard a lot of complaining about how the profs knew their subjects, but didn’t know how to teach. Ever tried learning a tricky subject from someone who intuitively understood the material, but couldn’t get it across to another person? Well that skill is called “teaching”. I spent some time as a teacher, and I can tell you there have been a lot of misleading generalizations in this thread. As to the rigorousness of teacher preparation, that varies widely according to state requirements and the training institution. My state requires a bachelor’s, and then a master’s degree after a period of time. During my bachelor’s we took the same science classes as pre-med students, such as anatomy and physiology. To suggest this was not rigorous requires either ignorance or foolishness. For my master’s I wrote a thesis requiring statistical analysis complex enough to require enlisting a mathematician as a consultant. After I left teaching I was able to utilize my training as a part-time flight instructor. And I can tell you, my ability to teach is my major strength compared to other instructors. I don’t have the 5000+ hours of other pilots, but I turn out better students because of my ability to teach. This has been remarked upon numerous times by my flight students and FAA examiners. In my teaching career I was certainly frustrated at times with bonehead co-workers. But that’s happened in every career I’ve had. Most teachers of my experience are quite dedicated. However, the job is difficult, and survival does require abandoning some ideals at times. Let’s not forget, public school educates EVERYBODY who shows up. You try instructing people who don’t want to be taught, and see how far you get. If you have the right training and temperment, you might be able to do it. We call these people “teachers”. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/50 "2005-12-29T03:25:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think that just strengthens my point. To be an effective teacher, you only require a competant level of intelligence. It’s much more important to have a desire to teach and the interpersonal skills to deal with children. And I would argue that coming up with ways to deal with children requires quite a bit of intelligence: you have to be able to process information in a multitude of ways in order to understand how to convey it in different terms until it sticks. As far as erudition goes (as opposed to creativity or interpersonal skills) It also matters what you teach: I teach an AP course to some amazingly bright kids. I have to be able to stay one step ahead of them, and, perhaps as importantly, follow them when they get ahead of me (and sometimes they do–it’s what I am working towards, after all). I daresay a great many adults could not pass my class, even if they wanted to. As far as workload is concerned, I think teaching is just like any other profession. Ambitious people work their butts off their whole careers to get where they want. Teachers can have ambitions: to teach certain courses that they like, to administrate (shudder), to consult, to specialize. To aquire prestige and professional respect. People that want these things work hard for them. Some people don’t, and they take a more relaxed approach. This is the same as any office or other work enviroment. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/51 "2005-12-29T03:30:21Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > There shouldn’t be any pure education programs. Education below certain grades should be supported by a cognitive psychology track as part of a real psych degree, as opposed to a fluffy/faux ed degree. When subject matter is to be taught, a core degree in that actual subject is the gold standard, with a supplemental educational track tossed in. Funny, when I was in college and grad school I heard a lot of complaining about how the profs knew their subjects, but didn’t know how to teach. Ever tried learning a tricky subject from someone who intuitively understood the material, but couldn’t get it across to another person? Well that skill is called “teaching”. I spent some time as a teacher, and I can tell you there have been a lot of misleading generalizations in this thread. As to the rigorousness of teacher preparation, that varies widely according to state requirements and the training institution. My state requires a bachelor’s, and then a master’s degree after a period of time. During my bachelor’s we took the same science classes as pre-med students, such as anatomy and physiology. To suggest this was not rigorous requires either ignorance or foolishness. For my master’s I wrote a thesis requiring statistical analysis complex enough to require enlisting a mathematician as a consultant. After I left teaching I was able to utilize my training as a part-time flight instructor. And I can tell you, my ability to teach is my major strength compared to other instructors. I don’t have the 5000+ hours of other pilots, but I turn out better students because of my ability to teach. This has been remarked upon numerous times by my flight students and FAA examiners. In my teaching career I was certainly frustrated at times with bonehead co-workers. But that’s happened in every career I’ve had. Most teachers of my experience are quite dedicated. However, the job is difficult, and survival does require abandoning some ideals at times. Let’s not forget, public school educates EVERYBODY who shows up. You try instructing people who don’t want to be taught, and see how far you get. If you have the right training and temperment, you might be able to do it. We call these people “teachers”. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/52 "2005-12-29T04:06:42Z")
Educational levels and intelligence do not necessarily automatically translate into being a superior teacher. Most of my fellow teachers where I work have Masters degrees, but if they can’t or won’t relate to the students in a way that connects the material to their lives, all that knowledge does them no good. Also, a lack of enthusiasm for the job on the part of the teacher can kill whatever motivation a student might bring to the class. Our school has a teacher who has earned a doctorate in English, but his World Lit. classes are incredibly boring. Having said that, I love being in a profession where I can consult an expert on just about any field (Renaissance art, biology, grammar, etc.) if there is something I need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/53 "2005-12-29T05:36:54Z")
I teach English (as a language, not as a literature). I know quite a bit about the Grammar, the History and the function of language. Still I make spelling mistakes and sometimes find myself caught out by a student. (Most recently by a student who asked me which part of speech “yes” was.) So any average bear can think himself smarter than me if he were to observe a couple of months of my class. This is human nature. Still, few people can do a good solid forty-five minutes on the Passive Voice, or stand up and present an explanation of Object and Subject Pronouns with no preparation. (Hint: Use the Chicken Method.) Teaching is a skill quite separate from being a subject matter expert. Lots of people know more about the language than I do, few can communicate it to students as well as I can. ---
**Author:** ![inquiring\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@inquiring\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inquiring_mind)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/54 "2005-12-29T05:54:48Z")
This is a variation of the original quote: He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches. –G.B. Shaw, “Maxims for Revolutionists” in the play Man and Superman (1903) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/55 "2005-12-29T06:50:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I don’t know how one can profess to be pro-education and also anti-teacher; I don’t know what “Anti-teacher” means in the abstract, but there are many who have a problem with the teachers’ unions, which do not always have the best interests of the students at heart. Granted, they aren’t really supposed to; unions exist solely to benefit their members. But if you come to the conclusion that large-scale school reform is necessary or that a certain percentage of teachers are incompetent, and you find “teachers” (in the form of their unions) fighting any changes to the status quo, you start to conclude that they’re part of the problem. And lest I be misunderstood: I am a teacher. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/56 "2005-12-29T08:14:25Z")
> [@Frank McCourt](#): > > In 'Tis I wrote about my life in America and how I became a teacher. After it was published I had the nagging feeling I’d given teaching short shrift. In America, doctors, lawyers, generals, actors, television people and politicians are admired and rewarded. Not teachers. Teaching is the downstairs maid of professions. Teachers are told to use the service door or go around the back. They are congratulated on having ATTO (All That Time Off). They are spoken of patronizingly and patted, retroactively, on their silvery locks. Oh, yes, I had an English teacher, Miss Smith. She used to say that if she reached one child in her forty years of teaching it would make it all worthwhile. She’d die happy. The inspiring English teacher then fades into gray shadows to eke out her days on a penny-pinching pension, dreaming of the one child she might have reached. Dream on, teacher. You will not be celebrated. I think it’s essentially a vicious cycle. As mentioned by another poster, modern education, with its overstuffed classrooms, is a hell of a lot more about crowd control than pedagogy. So you end up with overstressed teachers and students who get a negative educational experience. The negative students then grow up to elect leaders and vote on ballot propositions that decide how much of a limited supply of resources go to education. WHAT?!? Give those bastards who made my childhood miserable more dough?!? So they show their hate of their experiences (if not education itself) in their decisions, ensuring that another generation has a negative experience. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/57 "2005-12-29T09:05:58Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > I’m not any kind of teacher, nor an engineer, but I have to ask if this attitude might not be justified in many fields. By definition, a professor of engineering (or anything else) works in a different milieu from that of a practitioner in industry. Therefore he/she’d naturally be out of place, at least temporarily, if suddenly thrust into a job outside academia. I work in industry, but I also work well with a lot of professors (of engineering.) Most of them would kill to get closer to practical stuff, but for some reason companies don’t release their latest designs to them. They can’t use CAD tools as well as expert users, but people in industry often have a myopic view of the field, know (very well) just what they need to know, and don’t see what is coming. Anyhow, remember senior professors are more like managers than worker bees, supervising their grad students doing the real work. How many managers are truly experts and up to speed with the latest advances? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/58 "2005-12-29T09:07:47Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Well, that’s true to a point. But the show rewards rote memorization, not analytical thinking. > > And I’m as qualified to point that out as anyone. 😉 Rote memorization will never let you know enough stuff to get on. It really rewards wide but shallow reading and TV watching, and a good memory. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/59 "2005-12-29T09:13:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The other part of it is the new Right wing “war on teachers”. Since teachers unions vote heavily Democratic, one of the tools of the religious right is to denigrate teachers. Besides; teachers teach evolution and Sex-ed, and those are evil. :rolleyes: If you don’t believe me, look to your comic pages where a certain right-wing duck is constantly attacking teachers. I don’t know how one can profess to be pro-education and also anti-teacher; but these dudes aren’t really pro-education. I do think this is some of it - this and anti-tax mania which has cut school funding, at least here in California. They eliminate a period from the day, then yell that the kids are not learning enough. When I was in school the teachers were of my parents generation, who grew up in an environment where teaching was one of the few safe jobs in the Depression. In that tradition, it got the very best. My view might be skewed, since I was lucky to be in the honors classes at one of the best high schools in New York, but all the teachers I knew were either bright or very bright. Those insulting the profession for years should not be surprised when it starts meeting their expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367/60 "2005-12-29T09:59:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Rote memorization will never let you know enough stuff to get on. It really rewards wide but shallow reading and TV watching, and a good memory. Might be why I did reasonably well on the show then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-considered-intellectually-inferior/337367.md?page=4)