# (Why) are teachers not respected? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474 "2013-03-09T11:18:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/141 "2013-03-20T13:38:42Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It’s hard to make people swallow the line about how all teachers and teachers’ unions are unqualifiedly good when everyone has experiences with teachers. Many people don’t really know what it’s like to be a steelworker or a retail cashier or a CEO, but we all went to school, and we saw that some teachers are more dedicated than others, to say the least. Right now it’s a taboo to question the orthodoxy of “underpaid and overworked” teachers even when the facts say otherwise, which makes the large mass of people who know it’s not universally the case even more disgruntled about being peddled a line of bullshit. I think you’re missing the point. The question is for what they do, the responsibility they have (the education and welfare of their students), the fact that they need at least a bachelor’s degree and continual professional development, pass professional tests to be licensed and for many a master’s degree - why are teachers not given the respect similar to those that have similar qualifications and responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/142 "2013-03-20T14:05:32Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think you’re missing the point. The question is for what they do, the responsibility they have (the education and welfare of their students), the fact that they need at least a bachelor’s degree and continual professional development, pass professional tests to be licensed and for many a master’s degree - why are teachers not given the respect similar to those that have similar qualifications and responsibility? I again ask for some sort of evidence they’re not. Most people with similar qualifications work jobs you don’t even think about. How much thought do you give to the guy who manages the plant that made the cap on your bottle of water? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/143 "2013-03-20T14:17:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I again ask for some sort of evidence they’re not. Most people with similar qualifications work jobs you don’t even think about. How much thought do you give to the guy who manages the plant that made the cap on your bottle of water? Nice strawman. So you’re telling me the guy that manages the water-cap plant: 1. Is required by state law to have a bachelor’s degree 2. Pass tests (that he pays for) showing competency in making bottle caps 3. Is required to do 150 hours of professional development every 5 years or he loses his bottle-cap making license 4. Supervises anywhere from 20 to 120 direct reports all under 18. Oh and he can’t fire them. 5. Is responsible for having his workers improve on the state standardized bottle-cap making test ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/144 "2013-03-20T14:19:39Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think you’re missing the point. The question is for what they do, the responsibility they have (the education and welfare of their students), the fact that they need at least a bachelor’s degree and continual professional development, pass professional tests to be licensed and for many a master’s degree - why are teachers not given the respect similar to those that have similar qualifications and responsibility? Exactly. My mother was a teacher, and my wife is a lawyer, and the educational requirements are about the same\*, and believe it or not, so are the hours and continuing education requirements. Mom had to be at school at 7 for bus-duty to watch the kids whose buses showed up early, and she didn’t usually leave until after 5 because there were lesson plans to write, grading to do, evaluations to do, and a mountain of other paperwork that needed doing outside of the usual classroom teaching hours. She got 30 minutes for lunch as well, plus had to go in after hours and on weekends for parent-teacher conferences, and stupid shit like spring carnivals and open houses. Yet my mom at her very highest, made less than 50k per year as a teacher, and that’s with 20 years of experience, continual highest-level evaluations, taking on several student teachers per year, and being part of a since discontinued Texas incentive pay program. My wife on the other hand, started out of school making upwards of 75k and when she quit practicing was pushing 100k. And was much more respected in the community. I think a lot of it is that people’s conception of what teachers do is filtered through what they saw when they were 10 year olds. If all you see is someone who pesters you from 8 am to 3 pm for 9 months of the year, then you tend to think that’s all they do, and that it can’t be that hard, when the reality is that they do a lot more than you see as a student, and relative to what other jobs with similar requirements pay, they’re severely underpaid. - Say what you will about the “doctorate” part of a JD, but a JD and most masters degrees are in the ballpark of 60 credit hours and 2 years. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/145 "2013-03-20T14:27:16Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > New York State does require a Master’s in order to maintain your teaching license. I am not going to look for a cite, but there are tons of them. I don’t remember if you need a Master’s right out of the gate or if you have a couple of years to get one, but it is necessary at some point in order to stay licensed. Any masters will do though, it doesn’t have to be an education masters. I am currently job hunting in the New Jersey area and my lack of an MA (or MFA) is preventing me from expanding my search into New York. It took me a few minutes to find, predictably enough, that this isn’t true. The requirement for a teaching certificate in the State of New York is a bachelor’s degree, for most positions. I got this directly from the New York State Education Department’s search tool for education requirements. > **[certhelp-frontend](https://eservices.nysed.gov/teach/certhelp/CertRequirementHelp.do)** ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/146 "2013-03-20T14:45:09Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Nice strawman. So you’re telling me the guy that manages the water-cap plant: > > 1. Is required by state law to have a bachelor’s degree > 2. Pass tests (that he pays for) showing competency in making bottle caps > 3. Is required to do 150 hours of professional development every 5 years or he loses his bottle-cap making license > 4. Supervises anywhere from 20 to 120 direct reports all under 18. Oh and he can’t fire them. > 5. Is responsible for having his workers improve on the state standardized bottle-cap making test Obviously not, but if he doesn’t do his job right, one time, the production facility can shut down, costing the owner of the company tens of thousands of dollars a day in lost revenue. If he doesn’t do his job, right the quality of the product could suffer, costing the owner thousands to millions of dollars in lost contracts. He’s required to manage not only the workers, but ensure that the facility is in good repair, the grounds are maintained, the suppliers are providing the correct raw materials at the correct time. He has to budget the appropriate amount of money to each aspect of the facilities needs to ensure that all departments are adequately staffed, have sufficient financial support, and still make bottle caps cheaply enough to be profitable in a competitive market. He has to understand changes in the industry, new technologies to make bottle caps cheaper, and pick the RIGHT new technology when it is available, or he will get left behind by his competitor, and all those folks he works with every day lose their jobs and are left scrambling for some way to support their families. But, he doesn’t have to deal with 25 3rd graders every day, and go to classes over the summer, so he’s overpaid. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/147 "2013-03-20T15:23:48Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Nice strawman. So you’re telling me the guy that manages the water-cap plant: > > 1. Is required by state law to have a bachelor’s degree > 2. Pass tests (that he pays for) showing competency in making bottle caps > 3. Is required to do 150 hours of professional development every 5 years or he loses his bottle-cap making license > 4. Supervises anywhere from 20 to 120 direct reports all under 18. Oh and he can’t fire them. > 5. Is responsible for having his workers improve on the state standardized bottle-cap making test You’re the one presenting a strawman. No, he doesn’t necessarily need some of these specific qualifications, but s/he would certainly need equivalent ones, which is why I picked that particular example. The bottle cap factory nearest where I live has a manager who has responsibility over about 150 employees, who can (with considerable difficulty) be fired, but of course, she’s also responsible for not screwing up so they don’t lose their jobs. Her educational qualifications are certainly equivalently difficult, and the health and safety and environmental certifications and regulations involved in running a plant that makes containers for products meant for human consumption are extremely complex, and she needs to be on top of them. You need substantial background, experience and skills in personnel management, business management, AND the relevant engineering and product expertise. The hours involved are tremendous; I doubt the person who runs a mid-sized manufacturing facility ever sees a week of fewer than 50 hours of work, and 60-70 would be pretty common, and vacations limited. Far fewer people are qualified to do that job than to be a schoolteacher, even if we limit the range to “Be a good schoolteacher.” The stress involved in such a position is astounding. But you’re not even aware of the job’s existence, really; it’s not something that crossed your mind until I presented it as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/148 "2013-03-20T16:03:05Z")
I wonder if many of the requirements for teachers may be seen as feel-good measures implemented by politicians without any real outcome re: performance. My MS (in progress toward a PhD) was a joke. The exams that teachers have to pass aren’t exactly difficult. And continuing ed is a hoop-jumping exercise one week each summer. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/149 "2013-03-20T17:14:19Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I wonder if many of the requirements for teachers may be seen as feel-good measures implemented by politicians without any real outcome re: performance. My MS (in progress toward a PhD) was a joke. The exams that teachers have to pass aren’t exactly difficult. And continuing ed is a hoop-jumping exercise one week each summer. I’ve no doubt this is often true. I mean, consider the reverse; what would happen if a politician proposed eliminating some teaching certification requirements? No matter how how logical her/his case was, no matter how well presented, people would scream bloody murder about it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/150 "2013-03-20T17:49:54Z")
Okay, people, can we get this straight here so your attempts to put teachers in a no-win situation can be somewhat fact based. You do not need an education degree to become a teacher. You do not need a masters to become a teacher. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/151 "2013-03-20T19:57:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I again ask for some sort of evidence they’re not. Most people with similar qualifications work jobs you don’t even think about. How much thought do you give to the guy who manages the plant that made the cap on your bottle of water? The difference is that the guy who manages the bottle cap plant isn’t a political football. Teachers are constantly the target of people who have a certain agenda, or who have an axe to grind. My wife is an elementary school teacher. She has no particular interest in politics. She became a teacher because she likes little kids and thought she’d be good at it. But the political machinations between the school district, the teacher’s union, the parents, and the city government are driving her crazy. And, as part of the political maneuvering, some people find it advantageous to claim that teachers are lazy, stupid, overpaid, etc. That’s what the bottle cap plant manager doesn’t have to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/152 "2013-03-20T21:01:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It took me a few minutes to find, predictably enough, that this isn’t true. The requirement for a teaching certificate in the State of New York is a bachelor’s degree, for most positions. I got this directly from the New York State Education Department’s search tool for education requirements. > > [certhelp-frontend](http://eservices.nysed.gov/teach/certhelp/CertRequirementHelp.do) Let me check that. My understanding (which I will verify) is that in order to maintain your license for more than 3 years you are required to get your masters. But that comes from people who have a vested interest in my teaching in New Jersey, so I will double check. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/153 "2013-03-20T21:23:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It took me a few minutes to find, predictably enough, that this isn’t true. The requirement for a teaching certificate in the State of New York is a bachelor’s degree, for most positions. I got this directly from the New York State Education Department’s search tool for education requirements. > > [certhelp-frontend](http://eservices.nysed.gov/teach/certhelp/CertRequirementHelp.do) That’s the requirement for an INITIAL TEACHING CERTIFICATE, not for a job, or for keeping a job. As has already been explained to you, you can get a job with just a Bachelor’s and a Teaching Certificate, but you need a Master’s to keep the job. After hire, you have a 5 year grace period in which to get a Master’s, 3 years of teaching experience and your PROFESSIONAL TEACHING CERTIFICATE, or you lose your employability. > [@](#): > > Types of New York Teaching Certificates > > In New York, there are two types of certificates teachers can obtain. Generally, teachers first receive an Initial Certificate, which is an entry-level teaching certificate issued in specific subject/grade titles valid for five years. During those five years, the teacher must complete the requirements to receive a Professional Certificate. A teacher must hold a Professional Certificate in order to have a long-term teaching career in New York (in extreme cases, a teacher can apply to extend the Initial Certificate, but such extensions are rare). Completing the required amount of professional development hours every five years will keep the Professional Certificate valid. > > Note that when you are applying for a teaching certificate, you must indicate the grade level and subject area you want to teach. This is called the certificate title. For example, you may choose Mathematics (Grade 7-12) or Generalist in Middle Child Education (Grades 5-9). Once you receive an Initial Certificate in a specific title, your Professional Certificate must be in the same title. > > Depending on your educational and professional background, you may be able to apply directly for a Professional Certificate. However, if you do not have the requisite experience, you will need to apply for an Initial Certificate and then complete the requirements to receive your Professional Certificate. > > Typical requirements for an Initial Certificate include: > > ``` > A minimum of a Bachelors Degree with unit requirements depending on the certificate title > Pedagogical Core coursework > Student teaching experience > Passing scores on LAST, ATS-W, and the appropriate CST (see Tests section below) > Completion of Child Abuse Identification and Reporting workshop and School Violence Intervention and Prevention workshop > Fingerprint Clearance > > ``` > > To receive a Professional Certificate, you must have all of the above plus: > > ``` > 3 years of paid, full-time classroom teaching experience > Master's degree > > ``` > **[Professional Licensing Guides](https://www.upwardlyglobal.org/career-coaching/professional-licensing-guides/)** > > Upwardly Global provides immigrant and refugee professionals with foreign credentials licensing guides for regulated professions. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/154 "2013-03-20T21:40:12Z")
Care to address the issue that NONE of these requirements involve the MA Ed boogey man? A few states have a PD requirement that wants long term teachers (how many new teachers stay more than five years, again?) to eventually get some kind of advanced degree (which may be less Than a year of coursework) over a period of half a decade. Can we contrast that with your first statement that requirement for “Masters of Education” degrees are somehow destroying education? This affects very few people, and has next to no effect on keeping people out of the profession ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/155 "2013-03-21T00:26:44Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Care to address the issue that NONE of these requirements involve the MA Ed boogey man? > > A few states have a PD requirement that wants long term teachers (how many new teachers stay more than five years, again?) to eventually get some kind of advanced degree (which may be less Than a year of coursework) over a period of half a decade. > > Can we contrast that with your first statement that requirement for “Masters of Education” degrees are somehow destroying education? > > This affects very few people, and has next to no effect on keeping people out of the profession Just to be clear, that wasn’t my statement, and I don’t fear the MA Ed. Just trying to point out that it’s certainly fair to say you need a Master’s (in Something) if you want to teach in NY for a career. You can substitute forever on an Initial Certificate, however. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/156 "2013-03-21T00:32:32Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Just to be clear, that wasn’t my statement, and I don’t fear the MA Ed. Just trying to point out that it’s certainly fair to say you need a Master’s (in Something) if you want to teach in NY for a career. > > You can substitute forever on an Initial Certificate, however. Apologies. I got you mixed up with Magiver. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474/157 "2013-03-21T00:36:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Apologies. I got you mixed up with Magiver. 'sokay. I kinda jumped in the middle of a bar brawl there. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-teachers-not-respected/652474.md?page=7)