# Why are the media ignoring the protest against the ground zero mosque? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367 "2010-06-08T00:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/141 "2010-06-09T20:51:24Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I can deal with Canadian issues as well. There is a rape case right now before a court in Toronto in which the victim is a veiled Muslima (I thought all this covering up kept men from being overcome with lust and raping women? But I digress.) > > She is refusing to remove her veil, thus depriving the accused of the basic right to see and confront their accuser, and depriving the judge of what they call “demeanour evidence” which is the look and body language of people as they testify. > > Once again, it is our western traditions and our justice system that has to bend over and take it to suit Muslims who chose to come here. Because to a Muslim, the fact that 99% of Canadians are Kaffirs simply means they have not yet been brought into submission to Islam. Well, our Muslims are obviously better than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/142 "2010-06-09T20:57:01Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Once again, it is our western traditions and our justice system that has to bend over and take it to suit Muslims who chose to come here. What do you mean, “has to bend over and take it”? AFAICT, the Canadian justice system isn’t “bending over and taking” anything in connection with this case. Rather, the [Ontario Court of Appeal is deliberating on what would be the best way to handle the veil issue](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gflcHLyMuLFeZB9dw09N5A_ZH6mg) in order to be **CONSISTENT** with the “western traditions” of the Canadian justice system. Shit on toast, **Valteron** , you really can’t even tell a positive from a negative on this issue, can you? Most proponents of civil liberties would probably consider it a **good** thing that a Canadian secular court is giving thoughtful consideration to a situation involving a potential conflict between freedom of religion and the rights of the defendant. But not you. As soon as you see the word “Muslim” in any news story, you seem to go into full-on “OMG NO THEY’RE DESTROYING OUR CULTUUUUUUURE!!!” mode, irrespective of what’s actually happening in the news story in question. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/143 "2010-06-09T20:58:15Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > What I meant is "How does Marley 23 know what I do besides post to the message boards? Maybe it’s a lucky guess. I figure someone who spews impotent rage like you do doesn’t have the guts to do anything in public. > [@](#): > > I will not get more specific (I have no intention of being killed by a Muslim fanatic) Good idea. Al Qaeda has multiple sleeper cells monitoring the SDMB at all times. > [@](#): > > Important point: My activities are all legal. Yeah, they don’t pass laws against doing nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/144 "2010-06-09T20:59:29Z")
By the way, **Valteron** , you are spelling that k-word wrong. Kafir is a nonbeliever. Kaffir is a racial slur. I know how diligent you are about the facts so I thought I should call that to your attention. ---
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/145 "2010-06-09T21:00:00Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Do you know me personally? I do notice that you’ve not answered the question about if you know any muslims personally, as has been asked by a couple users. Maybe you should get to know someone before you hate them? Just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/146 "2010-06-09T21:00:01Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Right, exactly. This NEVER happens in, say, extremist pseudo-Mormon communities. > > What religion are you, sir? I’m sure I can come up with a list of atrocities your coreligionists are responsible for. And before you start spouting that Hitler and Stalin were atheists, look up the facts. Hitler was definitely not an atheist. Stalin was, and so was Pol Pot. But there is no evidence their crimes were the result of their atheism. When Stalin starved millions in the Ukraine, for example, he did not do so because he was an atheist. He did so because he wanted to punish the Ukranians for withholding harvests and refusing to go along with his collectivization of farms. His problem was not that he failed to believe in God. His problem was too much belief in his ideology, Communism. Hitler was also a vegetarian and a non-smoker (who correctly believed that smoking causes cancer, BTW). But I do not put his crimes down to non-smoking and vegetarianism. That is NOT the same as people being strapped with explosives and told that a Allah will reward them in Paradise, of telling people they must wage Holy War against the infidels. In these cases, religion is a direct, obvious motivating force behind these crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/147 "2010-06-09T21:11:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Maybe it’s a lucky guess. I figure someone who spews impotent rage like you do doesn’t have the guts to do anything in public. Okay then! As long as your intimate knowledge of my activities is as well-based in fact as most of your opinions.:rolleyes: > [@Marley23](#): > > Good idea. Al Qaeda has multiple sleeper cells monitoring the SDMB at all times.. I didn’t say Al Qaeda, did I? Of course, maybe I am being paranoid. Not like they would kill hundreds of people and burn embassies over cartoons or sentence someone to prison for naming a Teddy Bear “Mohammed”. Or force a novelist to go into hiding in fear for his life and kill a couple of his translators. Or kill a film-maker like Theo van Gogh. You’re right, I must be delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/148 "2010-06-09T21:16:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > By the way, **Valteron** , you are spelling that k-word wrong. Kafir is a nonbeliever. Kaffir is a racial slur. Actually, they’re just different transliterations of the same word. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/149 "2010-06-09T21:19:32Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Okay then! As long as your intimate knowledge of my activities is as well-based in fact as most of your opinions. That’s more than intimate enough. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say Al Qaeda, did I? So now we know **Valteron** doesn’t handle rhetorical devices very well either. > [@](#): > > Of course, maybe I am being paranoid. You’re definitely being paranoid. To which you can add stupid, ignorant, and exceptionally pompous. You’re not Theo van Gogh or Salman Rushie. _People have heard of them._ You’re not even a teacher with a classroom. You’re some jerk on a message board. If you can’t manage to act like a decent human being with a functional sense of judgment, at least get over yourself. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Actually, they’re just different transliterations of the same word. Obviously. But the one-f spelling seems to be associated mostly with the original word, and the two-f spelling appears to be associated with its use as a racial slur. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/150 "2010-06-09T21:23:20Z")
> [@ElectricZ](#): > > I do notice that you’ve not answered the question about if you know any muslims personally, as has been asked by a couple users. > > Maybe you should get to know someone before you hate them? > > Just sayin’… One of them was a North African Muslim I have known since 1978. I became friends with him and we would sit and discuss and laugh about things. Back in those days you could probably count the Muslims in our city on your fingers. He said in fact that he had rejected Islam since he moved to the west. As time went by and the Muslim community in my city grew by leaps and bounds, he suddenly “rediscovered” Islam because it was “dangerous” for him to be known as an apostate, as he confided to me. The pressure from the newly-arrived Muslim community was too great to resist. He is straight and I am gay. We had never discussed that difference much, but suddenly it made a big difference. I no longer see him any more, but I think he is still in town, active in the “Religion of Peace”. I also work with one or rtwo Muslims, but the less they know about me, my beliefs (or my atheism) and my private life, the better it is. They usually end up figuring out I am gay and atheist anyhow, and then our relationship becomes “strictly professional”. Hello, goodbye, that sort of thing. Then again, when you consider that 72% of Brfitish Muslims actively support killing or imprisoning gays in the UK (I have no similar figures for Canada, sorry), it is kind of hard to be friends with people who think you should be dead or in jail. Do any of our Jewish members out there have Nazi friends or do any African-Americans have KKK friends, may I ask? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/151 "2010-06-09T21:31:02Z")
[quote=“Marley23, post:149, topic:542367”] That’s more than intimate enough. So now we know **Valteron** doesn’t handle rhetorical devices very well either. [QUOTE] Let me get this right: If I say a Muslim fanatic could want to kill me, I am being paranoid and full of myself. But if Marley says Al Qaeda, he is just using a “rhetorical device”. And how famous or well-known were the Japanese and Italian translators of “The Satanic Verses” in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/152 "2010-06-09T21:37:36Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Let me get this right: If I say a Muslim fanatic could want to kill me, I am being paranoid and full of myself. Yes. > [@](#): > > But if Marley says Al Qaeda, he is just using a “rhetorical device”. Yes. > [@](#): > > And how famous or well-known were the Japanese and Italian translators of “The Satanic Verses” in your opinion? Did they translate the books anonymously on the internet? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/153 "2010-06-09T21:40:11Z")
> [@ElectricZ](#): > > I do notice that you’ve not answered the question about if you know any muslims personally, as has been asked by a couple users. > > Maybe you should get to know someone before you hate them? > > Just sayin’… I forgot to mention there is a Muslim couple on our street. The wife wears a black Burqua and veil, and seems to have another kid in the stroller every year. I think they are up to three kids in three years. I have never tried to talk to her because as far as I am concerned, if she wishes to remove herself from normal social intercourse with her fellow Canadians, I am not going to force myself on her. Besides, I have been told by others who have rung her doorbell that she does not answer the door to anyone, male or female, while her husband is away. In fact, I was told by a Montreal fireman that there is a major problem of Muslim men in Montreal who lock their wives into their apartments dusing the day, by installing a lock that locks the door on both sides. This is a major concern for the Montreal FD, but nobody wants to talk about it for fear of being called “racist”. Nobody can remember the black-veiled woman on our street ever being out without her husband beside her, so it is possible she is locked in while he is away at work, although I have no proof of this. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/154 "2010-06-09T21:42:17Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I forgot to mention there is a Muslim couple on our street. Since you go on to say you don’t know them, this probably shouldn’t count. So you’re still at one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/155 "2010-06-09T21:43:16Z")
Well, that just makes it all the more necessary to get out on the streets of Manhattan and protest the construction of a community center by a liberal Muslim organization that advocates for women’s rights in Islam! Seriously, **Valteron** , can you not see the cognitive dissonance you’re engaging in here? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/156 "2010-06-09T22:17:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, that just makes it all the more necessary to get out on the streets of Manhattan and protest the construction of a community center by a liberal Muslim organization that advocates for women’s rights in Islam! > > Seriously, **Valteron** , can you not see the cognitive dissonance you’re engaging in here? Taqqiya (the Muslim art of lying to advance the cause) strikes again. It amazes me how easily you people are fooled. Look at those words of yours. . . .“advocates for women’s rights **IN ISLAM** ” (emphasis mine). It is like the slave owner before the civil war who said that nobody was more devoted to just treatment of the black folk than he was. Of course, his definition of just treatment was another matter, since he believed in slavery. But he was quite sincere in what he said. You may be interested to know that most Islamic nations refused to sign the Universal Declarations of Human Rights, because it provides for all sorts of freedoms and equalities that Islam cannot stomach. Instead, they came up with the “Cairo Declaration” that provides an Islamic declaration of rights which must be consistent with Sharia law. Similarly, a recent news story out of Britain says that Muslims have started a campaign to improve their image with the British public. Ingenious but misleading ads are now being run that say something to the effect that Mohammed considered women’s rights were sacred. Of course he did! He and his sexist crew had reduced women to chattels or children who must be in the control of a husband or male relative, but had granted their prisoners some rights within this patriarchal prison. You see, the add does not say WHICH rights we are talking about, does it? A woman has the right to inherit only a small proportion of the family estate, much smaller than the portion received by male hairs. I am sure that Mohammed would have considered this “right” sacred indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/157 "2010-06-09T22:22:52Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Taqqiya (the Muslim art of lying to advance the cause) strikes again. It amazes me how easily you people are fooled. It’s the Atheist Inquisition! If they claim to be liberal Muslims, they are lying to advance the cause. If they claim to be reactionary Muslims, by golly they’re surely telling the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/158 "2010-06-09T22:30:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s the Atheist Inquisition! > > If they claim to be liberal Muslims, they are lying to advance the cause. If they claim to be reactionary Muslims, by golly they’re surely telling the truth. All I am saying is that you should ask yourself specifically what rights of women they are advancing before you award them full marks for being so liberal and modern. It is like when Muslims say they hope our children and theirs will live in Peace some day. That has a secondary meaning to Muslims, namely, the “peace” of everyone having submitted to Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/159 "2010-06-09T22:49:45Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > You may be interested to know that most Islamic nations refused to sign the Universal Declarations of Human Rights You appear to be ignorantly unaware that the Universal Declaration is not a legally binding document and thus **does not have ANY signatories**. It was ratified by proclamation with 48 votes in the UN. The following countries voted for the Universal Declaration: **Afghanistan** , Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, **Burma** , Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Denmark, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, India, **Iran, Iraq, Lebanon** , Liberia, Luxembourg, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, **Pakistan** , Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Thailand, Sweden, **Syria, Turkey** , United Kingdom, United States, Uruguay and Venezuela. The following countries abstained: Byelorussian SSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Ukrainian SSR, USSR, as well as Yugoslavia, South Africa and **Saudi Arabia**. There were no votes against. So tell me, **Valteron** as between the list of votes for the Declaration, and the abstentions, which list contains the “most” muslim nations? God you’re pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367/160 "2010-06-09T22:52:46Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > All I am saying is that you should ask yourself specifically what rights of women they are advancing before you award them full marks for being so liberal and modern. I suppose that’s not an unfair assessment, but considering you’re not actually bothering to ask what rights they’re advancing, you’re still being a dick. No matter; I’ve done the legwork for you. [Here](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/muslims/interviews/feisal.html)’s a 2002 Frontline interview with Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam who leads the Cordoba Initiative. And here are his comments, in relevant part: > [@](#): > > **What about interpretations regarding women, in particular? We find, in many parts of the world that tend to be populated by Muslims, it seems that women are getting the short end of the stick.** > > Well … the prophet, for his times, was a feminist. And there are certainly voices within the Muslim world who believe and argue very strongly for the rights of women. But gender relationships really deal with the cultural norms of a particular group and the times in which they live. If one were to say, for instance, that American women are behind Muslim women – and I pick the fact that there have been five Muslim women heads of state, and that the United States is behind the Muslim world in this regard – that would not be considered to be an accurate assessment of how women are regarded in a particular society. One has to look at the sum total … of the norms and the relationships and the understandings that exist in a given society in a given time. … > > Some of what we see may be considered to be inequities. But we have to remember that when Islam spread from Arabia to what we consider the Muslim world today, it spread through countries and societies which had very ancient traditions. Egypt had an ancient tradition, Iran, another ancient country, Persia before that. The subcontinent of India: another ancient culture. Same thing with current-day Turkey, the Byzantine Empire. … > > Through that, many cultural norms became to be considered by societies as being Islamic, but they’re really cultural. So in matriarchal societies, which you will see some matriarchal societies like in West Africa or in Egypt, you’ll find women very, very influential. Women hold the purse strings; women determine a lot of what happens, because ancient Egypt had a tradition of having women kings, women queens, queens of Egypt. > > Whereas in some societies, which tended to be nomadic, it was very much more male-oriented, and the patriarchal and very strong male orientation became predominant. So as you go across much of the Muslim world, you will see this diversity, which really entered into Muslim life through custom, and not through the Quran and the hadith itself. > [@](#): > > **In what ways do Western values, morals, and cultural practices, intrude upon, and [in what ways] are they at variance with Islamic ideals?** > > I think there are two aspects to this question, in the broader sense of the word. There is Western values regarding governance; Western values regarding separation of powers; Western notions regarding what the role of government is in society; Western notion in terms of democratic institutions and principles and ideas. And to a large extent, Muslims are very enamored of these systems, and would like to implement them in their own societies … because these principles and norms are completely in sync with the principles of the Quran and the teachings of the prophet. Muslims would like very much to implement these norms within their societies. > > When you come to speak about things like behavioral norms, gender relationships, or the kind of things that people will do, this is a separate issue. And there is another aspect of the West, and that is the attitude of the West towards the non-Western countries, in terms of trying to be presumptuous in telling them how they should even live their lives in ways that they are not accustomed to – like modes of dress, for instance. In the 1930s, when the first shah of Iran forced his soldiers at bayonet point to force Iranian women to take off the chador, for instance. > > People don’t like to be told how to dress. This is a matter of personal individual conscience. Even we here in the West do not insist that our students in public schools wear uniforms. We give them that level of freedom. People do not like to be told how to do certain things in their personal lives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-media-ignoring-the-protest-against-the-ground-zero-mosque/542367.md?page=9)