# Why are the Trump defectors having such little impact on the polls and Trump's chances? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 7, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041 "2020-09-07T17:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/101 "2020-09-08T20:52:12Z")
> [@thickpancreas](#): > > That’s not what I was getting at. I’d be happy to elaborate (and will on your queue), but it’d likely take the thread in a whole new direction and it’s already gone off course. I’m in agreement with Quicksilver. I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/102 "2020-09-08T20:58:27Z")
> [@thickpancreas](#): > > Both parties are to blame for the state our society is in and neither can claim any type of moral superiority. If you can think of anything else Trump and the Republicans could have done to strive harder for moral _inferiority_, I’d like to hear it. The claim isn’t that the Democrats are moral paragons with godlike power to enact positive and beneficial policies. The fact of the matter is that Republicans are endlessly pushing the boundaries of how bad they can be. I mean, Trump is openly endorsed by neonazis and the KKK, who are _thrilled_ with how openly racist he is. And, yes, the Republicans are entirely cool with this. I find it incredible that anybody can claim with a straight face that the Dems and Pubs are equal on race issues. It’s an absurd claim on the face of it. ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/103 "2020-09-08T20:58:45Z")
Again, I will try to keep this short but am happy to elaborate. Perhaps the largest problem facing the black community is the failure of the black nuclear family; Black kids are the most likely to be raised in single parent households by a wide margin. Blacks are most likely to become teen parents. Blacks are the most likely to have a parent in jail or prison. Blacks have the lowest marriage rate. Blacks have the most sexual partners, and most unintended pregnancies. The politically correct, ineffectual solution to these problems is to “fight back against systemic racism and inequality.” The necessary, more effectual and more difficult and painful solution is to build a culture of accountability in the black community. To enhance the self-efficacy of it’s young men and women. To shift the focus away from the “racist out there in North Dakota” and on to the improvement of the black family (and by extension the community) itself. But even broaching these conversations in public is dangerous now. Anyone who does so risks being called a bigot, a racist, an Uncle Tom. As a black man, and as the president of the USA, Barack Obama was (and still is to some extent) one of the few people that could address what is at the core of the problems plaguing the black community. He is one of the only people in the world with the political capital, visibility, and tact in the position to do it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/104 "2020-09-08T21:01:31Z")
Oh, so in other words, Obama had has chance to say “Pull your pants up” and blew it. ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/105 "2020-09-08T21:02:52Z")
again with the arrogance and condescension 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/106 "2020-09-08T21:03:35Z")
> [@thickpancreas](#): > > The politically correct, ineffectual solution to these problems is to “fight back against systemic racism and inequality.” The necessary, more effectual and more difficult and painful solution is to build a culture of accountability in the black community. To enhance the self-efficacy of it’s young men and women. To shift the focus away from the “racist out there in North Dakota” and on to the improvement of the black family (and by extension the community) itself. If you think the solution to the problem is to tell black people that all their problems are their own fault and they should be accountable and fix their problems with no help whatsoever from the outside, it doesn’t matter _who_ is in office - you can yell at the kids to shape up either way. Personally, I think that the basis for the the bulk of the problems of the black communities in america have solid roots in widespread and historical income inequality and in institutional racism (including police action). Which is not to say that democrats have a great track record in fixing any of this, but if you think that Republicans will do any better, I cordially question your awareness of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/107 "2020-09-08T21:04:56Z")
I never said I thought republicans would do better. I’ve stated several times in this thread that neither party has my vote. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/108 "2020-09-08T21:09:09Z")
> [@thickpancreas](#): > > Perhaps the largest problem facing the black community is the failure of the black nuclear family; Black kids are the most likely to be raised in single parent households by a wide margin. Blacks are most likely to become teen parents. Blacks are the most likely to have a parent in jail or prison. Blacks have the lowest marriage rate. Blacks have the most sexual partners, and most unintended pregnancies. > > The politically correct, ineffectual solution to these problems is to “fight back against systemic racism and inequality.” The necessary, more effectual and more difficult and painful solution is to build a culture of accountability in the black community. To enhance the self-efficacy of it’s young men and women. To shift the focus away from the “racist out there in North Dakota” and on to the improvement of the black family (and by extension the community) itself. > > But even broaching these conversations in public is dangerous now. Anyone who does so risks being called a bigot, a racist, an Uncle Tom. As a black man, and as the president of the USA, Barack Obama was (and still is to some extent) one of the few people that could address what is at the core of the problems plaguing the black community. He is one of the only people in the world with the political capital, visibility, and tact in the position to do it. In a sense you are correct, but I believe you have cause and effect reversed. All those things you mention as problematic of Black culture, the teen parenthood, parents in jail, unintended pregnancies, and so on, are caused by poverty. Yes, it’s a vicious cycle, but it was the poverty that started it. This means the only solutions that will work will necessarily involve working on that poverty. That means money, not preaching or moralizing, is what will do the most good at solving the problem. ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/109 "2020-09-08T21:10:30Z")
I disagree. Poor people of other cultural backgrounds do not have the same problems, or to the same degree. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/110 "2020-09-08T21:11:23Z")
Because you think they would do exactly the same as each other. Which, honestly, is not giving republicans credit for their hard work. They’ve been actively courting the racists since Nixon. (That’s historical fact - see Southern Strategy.) ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/111 "2020-09-08T21:12:11Z")
Not voting for either does not at all imply that I think they’d do the same things wrong. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/112 "2020-09-08T21:14:48Z")
> [@thickpancreas](#): > > The necessary, more effectual and more difficult and painful solution is to build a culture of accountability in the black community. To enhance the self-efficacy of it’s young men and women. How would you do that? I think we can do that by making college affordable and accessible, to reduce police abuses that result in black kids being smeared with charges that a white suburban kid would have gotten a warning for. By not taking fathers from their homes, or creating a situation where the father cannot live in the home, for fear of losing benefits for their children. It is not the “racist out there in North Dakota” that _anyone_ is focusing on. It is the inequality and the racism that the “black community” has in its face every day. Between racial inequality in housing, employment, education, and policing, they are given severe disadvantages that it sounds like you are saying that they should just get over because they were told to by a black president. A lecture could have been given, do you think that that would have had the sort of impact you are looking for? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/113 "2020-09-08T21:15:33Z")
I do not believe that there is a _racial_ component to the black communities having greater problems, because I’m not that big of a racist. And I see the very, very, very long history of terrible treatment of blacks in America as being plausible cause for their unique circumstances. Seriously, the US has not been nice or fair to black people from day 1. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/114 "2020-09-08T21:16:48Z")
This is where intersectionality comes into play. I’ve been poor, and as a white guy, I just pretended that I wasn’t, and people believe that I wasn’t, and then I wasn’t anymore. A black person doesn’t get the same benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/115 "2020-09-08T21:16:53Z")
Agreed, it’s not racial, it’s cultural. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/116 "2020-09-08T21:17:56Z")
But it’s not black culture that’s the problem. It’s the culture around them. ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/117 "2020-09-08T21:18:05Z")
I’m black, I’ve been poor. I’ve had no shortage of opportunities or experiences. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/118 "2020-09-08T21:33:48Z")
Do you feel that your experience is universal? What I see as being called “black culture” is generational trauma from the results of historical and contemporary systemic racism. My parents were middle class, and so they raised me as middle class. There is much more to being middle class than just having money, it is something that you are taught. It is a way of being and behaving. It is putting value on education, and a value on family “values”. It is being “respectful” but not cowering towards authority. It is something that is learned through childhood in the environment, between parents and school and peer groups. It is not something that can be learned from a lecture. The problems are deep rooted, and it is overly simplistic to say that it all would have been fixed with a stern talking to from a black president. What exactly the solution is is difficult to say, and probably will require adaptive and dynamic policies to address over at least a generation or two. Will the dems get it right? Maybe not, it’s a hard thing to do, I’m sure there will be mistakes. Will the Republicans get it right? Hell no, they are actively against doing anything but lecturing those who are at their most vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/119 "2020-09-08T21:37:26Z")
It does indicate that you don’t think that one is better than the other. Add my voice to the chorus of those asking who _would_ you want to be president. ---
**Author:** ![thickpancreas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba9def/32.png) [@thickpancreas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thickpancreas)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041/120 "2020-09-08T21:50:52Z")
I need to work for a bit, I will have to get back to you later. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-the-trump-defectors-having-such-little-impact-on-the-polls-and-trumps-chances/920041.md?page=7)