# Why are there "Massage Parlors" in the Unites States? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2021, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289 "2021-03-20T08:25:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/41 "2021-03-22T08:04:27Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I just notice that every few years there’s a big rash of busts and then they ignore it for a few more years because the cops are customers who are in on it (source, again: busts in the newspaper). The “conventional wisdom” is that these rashes of busts tend to occur in election years, when the mayor is running for re-election and wants to rack up some easy “lawn-order” arrest statistics he can brag about. Another clue to happy-ending (or even better) “massage” shops can often be seen in the advertising, which commonly features photos or simple line-drawings of scantily-clad young females, and perhaps also scantily-clad clients, often with some risqué or semi-explicit double-entendres in the text. Legit massage providers would not have ads like that. Here’s a Pinterest page full of legitimate-looking massage ads: (You can scroll down a bit to see more without signing in, but after a while it asks you to sign in to see more.) > **[92 Massage Advertisement ideas | massage, massage therapy, massage quotes](https://www.pinterest.com/melisachristmas/massage-advertisement/)** > > Mar 11, 2018 - Explore Melisa Christmas's board "Massage Advertisement", followed by 104 people on Pinterest. See more ideas about massage, massage therapy, massage quotes. In contrast, if you do an image search for “happy ending massage advertisements”, you will see the distinct contrast in the kinds of ads shown in comparison with the above. Note that “legitimate” (strictly non-erotic) massage professionals and businesses are EXTREMELY sensitive over the popular conflation of massage work with sex work – for the obvious reason that sex work so often fronts as massage work. In professional massage work, there are very strict and specific ethics rules about what may and may not happen. Not only are the specific rules about what parts of the client’s body may and may not be touched, but there are also strict rules against nudity – parts of the client’s body that may not even be uncovered, let alone touched. (Except possibly in some clothing-optional new-agey resorts, like Harbin Hot Springs, where people are routinely naked already anyway.) I have it on good authority (from a professional masseuse and massage school instructor) that a legit spa or massage studio places extreme importance on this. A newly-minted massage practitioner might be forgiven for giving a mediocre massage, but let them be caught with just a hint of excess nudity, and that’s an instant firing offense! Any professional massage trade school would teach these rules. Ask me how I know that. /Senegoid/, CMT (Certified Massage Therapist) (yes, really) ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/42 "2021-03-22T08:24:30Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Because anti-sexwork laws are unconstitutional, but no lawmaker has the balls to challenge them. So, much like cannabis laws, they are more widely scoffed than obeyed. If they’re unconstitutional, the people with the strongest standing to challenge them are those affected by them - sex workers. Legislators can of course change laws if they consider them to be unconstitutional (or for any other reason that seems good to them) but I don’t think they would have standing to challeng in the courts the laws which they themselves have enacted. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/43 "2021-03-22T09:25:38Z")
Georgia has had a prostitution problem for decades i remember the gold club trial and people saying there were dozens of such places more or less around Atlanta and other big cities ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/44 "2021-03-22T11:21:43Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > In contrast, if you do an image search for “happy ending massage advertisements”, you will see the distinct contrast in the kinds of ads shown in comparison with the above. There’s a much easier way… not sure if it’s done anymore, but the Atlanta papers used to have a half-page devoted to massage parlors. It was always in the sports section, which was supposedly the tell that these were sexualized businesses. It seems reasonable enough given that they all advertised that they were open 24x7 and most of them had some reference to “oriental ladies.” When I took the newspaper in 2006-ish, this section looked to have about 20-40 listings. The local alt-paper had those same advertisements, plus additional racier ones that didn’t leave much to the imagination. I reckon that’s just the tip of the iceberg, and I don’t know if Atlanta has more of this than other towns. I’m just noting that it’s widespread and obvious, so people were not incorrect to assume it was a sexualized business. Local papers are now reporting that some of the shooting victims had prostitution-related priors in Georgia. There’s nothing at all wrong with saying these women were probably sex workers, and that sex workers are people, and they don’t deserve to get killed under any circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/45 "2021-03-22T11:31:12Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > Georgia has had a prostitution problem for decades i remember the gold club trial and people saying there were dozens of such places more or less around Atlanta and other big cities I think we should be careful about saying stuff like that. Yes, Atlanta often has high-profile busts of sex businesses. I’m not convinced that indicates anything other than a city with a regular amount of sex work, and a convention businesses that benefits from that sex work, and voters that collectively want to have both of those things plus highly dramatized busts of sex work, which also serve as advertisements of sex work. But it’s incontrovertible that Atlanta is a town where if a messed-up young man wakes up one morning wanting to kill some Asian prostitutes, before lunchtime he’ll be able to source a gun, ammunition, and a victim with no special connections at all. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/46 "2021-03-22T12:30:00Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Of course, and my examples were chosen intentionally to present the two extremes of a spectrum of coercion rather than to suggest there’s nothing in the middle of the two. The middle example is traffickers who arrange for the girls to come to North America promising some legitimate job, possibly even on some legitimate temporary visa, then hold on to their passports and threaten them with being deported by the authorities; and of course, they can’t go anywhere without their passports. Meanwhile, they are expected to work to pay off the large debt they incurred by being transported; and best case, the threat is their family and village will be told what they did if they are returned home - worst case is bodily harm to family back home. There are even stories of domestic servants receiving the same “locked up passport” treatment. It’s an intermediate form of coercion. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/47 "2021-03-22T12:49:09Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Because anti-sexwork laws are unconstitutional How so? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/48 "2021-03-22T14:52:25Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Don’t confuse undocumented workers afraid of getting deported with slaves kept in line by watchful gangsters via violence, sexual abuse, and death threats. I suspect the line between the two situations you’re describing is pretty vague. Sure, there are extremes that are easy to identify. But in the middle? Say someone is an unskilled worker, not represented by a union, on a construction site, and his employer is not paying him overtime, because the employer can get away with it. As far as I’m concerned, that employer is a gangster. At the other end, a woman is kept working in a “massage parlor” by gangsters who hold her passport and claim that she owes a massive debt that she must work off. It’s a spectrum, not a clear line. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/49 "2021-03-22T15:14:17Z")
It’s legal to have sex with a stranger. It’s legal to give money to a stranger. The only thing that’s illegal is to say out loud that the two are related. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/50 "2021-03-22T15:18:46Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Say someone is an unskilled worker, not represented by a union, on a construction site, and his employer is not paying him overtime, because the employer can get away with it. > > As far as I’m concerned, that employer is a gangster. A gangster? It’s a minor violation of law, there’s no coercion involved. I don’t think that’s on the spectrum we’re talking about. The lowest level here is just an undocumented worker who is only afraid of being found by immigration. That person may simply fear returning to poverty and far worse conditions than found in these massage parlors. And remember that the boss at the massage parlor may also be coerced somehow as well. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/51 "2021-03-22T15:20:58Z")
I think cheating workers out of their just compensation makes one a gangster. Just because the law favors employers who cheat their employees doesn’t render the issue unimportant, or “minor.” But, as I said, it’s a spectrum, not a clear line. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/52 "2021-03-22T15:23:39Z")
It’s coercion. Whether it is minor depends on if it is your labor being stolen. That boss is a gangster. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/53 "2021-03-22T15:26:21Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > anti-sexwork laws are unconstitutional […] It’s legal to have sex with a stranger. It’s legal to give money to a stranger. The only thing that’s illegal is to say out loud that the two are related. Yeah, that’s what makes prostitution “employment”. It’s constitutional to criminalize certain types of employment. The courts seem [not to be buying](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/18/they-argued-that-prostitution-is-a-constitutional-right-nice-try-said-federal-court/) the “unconstitutionality” argument: > [@](#): > > The Erotic Service Provider Legal Education and Research Project, or ESPLERP, filed a lawsuit in federal court in 2015 claiming that, under the Supreme Court’s ruling, California’s anti-prostitution law violates the constitutional rights of prostitutes and clients to engage in consensual sexual activity. They even went so far as to say that the ruling barred laws criminalizing prostitution among adults and that paying for sex was a form of protected commercial speech. > > It was a novel argument, but not one that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit found convincing. > > On Wednesday, the San Francisco-based court threw out the lawsuit, ruling that paying for sex didn’t count as the type of “intimate conduct” that Supreme Court justices had in mind. > > “There is no constitutional rights to engage in illegal employment, namely, prostitution,” Judge Jane A. Restani wrote for the three-judge panel. […] > > The court conducted what’s known as a “rational basis review” of the anti-prostitution statute, meaning it examined whether the anti-prostitution law had a legitimate purpose, then asked whether the law promoted that purpose. > > The prostitutes’ claims fell short on both questions, the Ninth Circuit found. The state had good reasons for outlawing prostitution, including discouraging human trafficking and violence against women, and the law was tailored to address those reasons, Restani wrote. > > The judge acknowledged that ESPLERP had offered evidence that criminalizing prostitution put sex workers at greater risk of violence and didn’t deter the spread of disease. But that wasn’t enough, she wrote. The organization’s claims “may yet convince the California legislature to change its mind. But this court cannot change its mind for them.” There are all sorts of laws restricting the nature and conditions of voluntary employment. For example, you’re not legally allowed to employ people to work in a facility that doesn’t comply with the relevant safety codes, even if your would-be employees are willing to take the risk in exchange for payment. Those legal restrictions are not unconstitutional, and neither are legal bans on prostitution. If the legislature chooses to repeal laws forbidding prostitution, they can. But as the above-quoted judge noted, the courts can’t overturn such laws on constitutionality grounds. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/54 "2021-03-22T15:27:06Z")
What’s the coercion? It’s a guy at a job who can leave if he doesn’t like it. He’s not getting arrested or deported. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/55 "2021-03-22T15:31:32Z")
Because if he doesn’t consent to something illegal (not being paid overtime) , he loses his job. That’s coercion, in the same way that a foreman making all the employees “kick back” part of their paycheck to keep their job would be coercion. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/56 "2021-03-22T15:36:21Z")
It’s only coercion if you think he is entitled to that job. I don’t think he his. That doesn’t make it right, just not coercion any more than the boss saying he’ll be fired if he doesn’t work harder. The illegality of it doesn’t turn it into coercion. And let’s not argue this out here, it has nothing to do with the situation at massage parlors. I regret bringing it up in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/57 "2021-03-22T15:44:01Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > It’s legal to have sex with a stranger. It’s legal to give money to a stranger. The only thing that’s illegal is to say out loud that the two are related. Can you point to where this is specified in The Constitution (as opposed to a George Carlin quote)? I always find it amusing when people declare something is “unconstitutional” because they feel it violates their concept of “freedom” without a clear understanding what is and is not defined in the actual Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/58 "2021-03-22T15:46:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s only coercion if you think he is entitled to that job. He’s entitled to pay for the work he did. And yes, saying “fuck you, you complain, you’re fired” is a form of coercion. It’s a threat. If a worker is compelled to accept wage theft, unsafe working conditions and whatever else the employer may be done, or lose his job, his means of support, yes, he’s being coerced. And not paying wages to which a worker is entitled is theft. Which makes the employer doing that a gangster. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/59 "2021-03-22T15:48:02Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > As I understand it, these are simply storefront bordellos. Please correct me if I am wrong. Why in the world are they allowed to remain open? Do they have some legal cover I do not understand? Yeah, because massage parlors are legitimate businesses. Hand & Stone or Bliss Spas found in W Hotels are massage parlors. So are “rub & tugs” found in Koreatown in Manhattan. Now I assume the NYPD can Google as well as the next person, so I’m not really sure why the later are allowed to remain open. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/60 "2021-03-22T16:09:14Z")
I posted this in another thread the other day, but it’s relevant to this thread: > **[The Case of Jane Doe Ponytail (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/11/nyregion/sex-workers-massage-parlor.html?mtrref=www.google.com&gwh=893476F83423C76493AD48FD55F14995&gwt=regi&assetType=REGIWALL)** > > She moved to Flushing, Queens, with dreams of success and citizenship. Now she was crumpled outside a massage parlor on 40th Road, her blood pooling on the pavement she had so often worked. It’s paywalled, but I think you can created a free login that gives you a few articles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289.md?page=4)