# Why are there "Massage Parlors" in the Unites States? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2021, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289 "2021-03-20T08:25:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/61 "2021-03-22T16:16:39Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, because massage parlors are legitimate businesses. Hand & Stone or Bliss Spas found in W Hotels are massage parlors. So are “rub & tugs” found in Koreatown in Manhattan. Yes. The situation is weird in New York. There are “massage parlors” all over the place in NYC. Some are exactly that, offering massages by masseurs or masseuses who know what they’re doing and are providing a legitimate service. And some are, well, not so legit, even though they have storefronts and signs outside the place. Or a sign, but the establishment is located upstairs, above legitimate and unrelated businesses. In some areas (Flushing, in Queens) the operation will spill out onto the sidewalk. Women are out front trying to entice customers. It’s not _quite_ street prostitution, but it’s pretty close. And in that neighborhood, the density of “massage” businesses is simply not credible. I mean, are there that many people in need of shiatsu massages, around the clock? So much so that there are seven businesses on the same block providing that same service, at two in the morning? And even in neighborhoods where the density isn’t in and of itself suspicious, one is naturally suspicious of 24-hour “Asian massage” establishments. And you’ll find them all over the place in Manhattan. Queens, especially in Flushing, has a vast number of such places. I don’t know about Brooklyn. There aren’t any (at least not any with a sign and/or a storefront) in my part of Brooklyn. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/62 "2021-03-22T16:26:06Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > It’s legal to have sex with a stranger. It’s legal to give money to a stranger. The only thing that’s illegal is to say out loud that the two are related. It legal to drive as fast as you want. Its legal to drive on public roads. Its illegal to drive as fast as you want on public roads. Totally unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/63 "2021-03-22T16:36:58Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > It’s legal to have sex with a stranger. It’s legal to give money to a stranger. The only thing that’s illegal is to say out loud that the two are related. You declared that certain laws are unconstitutional. This has a specific, factual meaning, and we are in General Questions. Can you explain how the Constitution does not allow such laws? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/64 "2021-03-22T16:40:28Z")
Free speech, and privacy ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/65 "2021-03-22T16:46:42Z")
Since the question’s been answered, I can tell an amusing story. When I was heading to Japan my neighbor recommended I get a massage there. He had and it was a wonderful experience. But he said that the hardest part was convincing someone that all he wanted was a massage. Whoever he was talking to was convinced that he was looking for sex. Finally, he was able to get a massage. What was unclear was whether most massage parlors in Tokyo were really brothels, or that it was assumed that a Canadian would assume that they were. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/66 "2021-03-22T18:36:22Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Free speech, and privacy Well, as I noted above in post #53, a pro-sex-work organization tried to make that case for the unconstitutionality of prostitution bans to an appeals court in a lawsuit, and the court didn’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/67 "2021-03-22T19:01:02Z")
Does anyone have a list of all the things that were once established law in the US and were subsequently found to be unconstitutional? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/68 "2021-03-22T19:20:46Z")
You could start here. [https://constitution.congress.gov/resources/unconstitutional-laws/](https://constitution.congress.gov/resources/unconstitutional-laws/) IANAL but I believe to have a chance of getting a law declared unconstitutional, it has to violate an actual clause in the Constitution, not an imaginary one like “right to privacy” . ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/69 "2021-03-22T19:35:21Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > IANAL but I believe to have a chance of getting a law declared unconstitutional, it has to violate an actual clause in the Constitution, not an imaginary one like “right to privacy” . Huh? No, there definitely have been laws declared unconstitutional on the basis of an implied constitutional right to privacy. Most famous, perhaps, is the [striking down of laws banning abortion by the Roe v. Wade decision:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade) > [@](#): > > In January 1973, the Supreme Court issued a 7–2 decision ruling that the [Due Process Clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause) of the [Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) provides a “right to privacy” that protects a pregnant woman’s right to choose whether or not to have an abortion. But it also ruled that this right is not absolute, and must be balanced against the government’s interests in protecting women’s health and protecting prenatal life. It is certainly possible for opinions to differ, and for consensus to change, about which laws qualify as constitutional. My point about the Ninth Circuit appeals court decision is just that a personal opinion that a particular law is at odds with what one considers constitutional principles doesn’t automatically make the law unconstitutional in a judicial sense. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/70 "2021-03-22T20:21:03Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Since the question’s been answered, I can tell an amusing story. When I was heading to Japan my neighbor recommended I get a massage there. He had and it was a wonderful experience. But he said that the hardest part was convincing someone that all he wanted was a massage. Whoever he was talking to was convinced that he was looking for sex. Finally, he was able to get a massage. What was unclear was whether most massage parlors in Tokyo were really brothels, or that it was assumed that a Canadian would assume that they were. But how common is it that a brothel prostitute would be certified in, let’s say, Shiatsu? You say your neighbor did, indeed, receive a satisfactory massage. ETA as far as I know, and relevant to this topic, brothels in Japan cannot be labelled as such due to an anti-prostitution law passed in 1956. So they have to “officially” be called something else, be it a soap land or a salon or health club or whatever. Maybe some are “massage parlors” and your friend got confused… ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/71 "2021-03-22T20:27:39Z")
Certified ? Likely no. Pretty good, yes. Looking at reviews tells you that some are better at massage than happy endings. Doing something ever day for 20 years improves techniques for both. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/72 "2021-03-22T20:41:05Z")
Re. Canada, for some reason Wikimedia has this picture of a Japanese “slippery massage” place in Montreal: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Montreal_Nuru_Massage_Parlor_Neon_Sign_%2830560733280%29.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Montreal_Nuru_Massage_Parlor_Neon_Sign_%2830560733280%29.jpg) Erotic massage, at the very least, if sex is not offered. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/73 "2021-03-23T00:27:35Z")
Years ago, I went to the Hamvention in Dayton, OH and met up with a friend from overseas that I’d previously only corresponded with online and his companion. My bud is probably about 10-15 years older than my parents and his friend was in his early 20s, much younger than I was then. Hamvention is the largest amateur radio festival in the world and is sort of a mix of flea market/swap meet, professional vendor displays, forums for presentations. Anyway, it draws a lot of international hams and is a sort of Mecca in the hobby. We met up at the convention and walked around and had a fun time. I wound up booking a room in the same motel they were in for the last few days of the trip and we made plans to hang out that night. When I got the their room, they were studying the telephone book that was in the room. “Where are the hookers? We tried hooker, whore house, prostitutes…” I snickered but, no, they were serious. They actually thought you could look up openly operating sex workers in the phonebook. Honestly, Asian massage places didn’t even occur to me at the time and I told them that, if at all, it would be under escorts but you’d probably have to dance around the conversation setting up the apointment. I doubt they would have gone through with it but I didn’t expect them to ask that. It made me realize that sex work must be more common in other parts or the world. Or easier to access. Or, perhaps, that this country has a reputation of easy access that isn’t accurate. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/74 "2021-03-23T01:00:12Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > They actually thought you could look up openly operating sex workers in the phonebook. Honestly, Asian massage places didn’t even occur to me at the time and I told them that, if at all, it would be under escorts but you’d probably have to dance around the conversation setting up the apointment. 😆 some time years back, someone pointed out to me something… The Manhattan (NY) Yellow Pages had like almost twenty pages for “Escort” alone (never mind “entertainers” and “massage”) boosted by numerous half- or full-page ads, and some three or four pages for Bail Bonds. The _Baltimore_ Yellow Pages had like at most three pages for “Escort” but OTOH had like at least _twelve_ for Bail Bonds and _they_ had the half-page ads. And when I had the chance to check, damn if they weren’t (roughly, at least vis-a-vis general proportions) right! I was tempted to make it a project to see what this was like in different locations and tabulate how this and other key listing characteristics mapped to the, ahem, general profile of the cities. Alas it was also just as the Yellow Pages themselves began declining and more and more places just had one of those third-party directories that proliferated in the time before the Smartphone killed off for good the need for a phone book in your room, so I did not go on with it. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/75 "2021-03-23T01:35:23Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > There are definitely businesses with words like “massage” or “spa” in their names that provide actual massage and, perhaps, other luxury treatments that are sort of peri-medical like skin rejuvenations and whatnot. Several of my friends who are women frequent them. I’ve been to such places twice, once to get my back hair waxed (glad I tried it but too bloody to do again), and once for a massage. > > As an older male, though, I’m nervous about trying such a place again, though I could really enjoy a massage of my back and neck, and perhaps hands and feet. I think it would be too easy to inadvertently choose one that offered illegal services (not interested!) and get swept up in a raid or something. > > Maybe if I went with a friend who was a legit massage customer… My wife regularly gets therapeutic massage. It’s pretty easy to deduce from the signage, layout, and location which spas offer legitimate massage from licensed professionals, and which offer sex work. @Senegoid lists some indicators in post #41. I encourage you to investigate therapeutic massage - it hurts like hell, but it loosens and stretches your muscles. I had one once, after a race, and the masseuse completely wrapped my body in a sheet, and only ever exposed the limb or area on which she was working. She did massage my glutes - since they’re big, important muscles that do a lot of work in running - but she never came close to my genitals or pubic area. There was nothing even vaguely erotic about the experience, but I felt better and recovered from my race more quickly afterwards. > [@nightshadea](#): > > Georgia has had a prostitution problem for decades i remember the gold club trial and people saying there were dozens of such places more or less around Atlanta and other big cities Back when I worked for an Atlanta business newspaper, one of the staff writers lobbied hard to make the sex industry a beat. He calculated that it was a $20 million business in Atlanta. And that was in 1992 - it’s much bigger now, I bet. (Although free internet porn seems to be killing off the porn stores, or at least the video rental business - there seem to be a lot fewer around. And the jack shacks - quote unquote “lingerie modeling” shops - have disappeared, as well.) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/76 "2021-03-23T02:47:19Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > It made me realize that sex work must be more common in other parts or the world. Or easier to access. Or, perhaps, that this country has a reputation of easy access that isn’t accurate. Well, one apartment I lived in in Europe was next door to a brothel-type brothel doing business as a brothel. It was in a nice, albeit not too far from the train station, part of town, and there were no see-through windows or garish signage, nothing obtrusive. All perfectly legal. On the other hand, never been to Dayton, but aren’t there [tart cards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tart_card)? Ads for “escorts” and/or straight-up call girls/boys? “Massage parlors?” Actual streetwalkers? Like any city? Even if it’s not Atlanta or Amsterdam or Manhattan or Cologne. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/77 "2021-03-23T03:33:40Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > On the other hand, never been to Dayton, but aren’t there [tart cards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tart_card)? Ads for “escorts” and/or straight-up call girls/boys? Heavens, no. It’s a ham radio festival, after all. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/78 "2021-03-23T03:37:10Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > On the other hand, never been to Dayton, but aren’t there [tart cards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tart_card)? In the US, I’ve only ever seen those in Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/79 "2021-03-23T04:16:03Z")
Tart cards are generally not found in the US. Only place I’ve seen them is, as mentioned, Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289/80 "2021-03-23T17:55:33Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > Hamvention is the largest amateur radio festival in the world and is sort of a mix of flea market/swap meet, professional vendor displays, forums for presentations. Anyway, it draws a lot of international hams and is a sort of Mecca in the hobby. > … > When I got the their room, they were studying the telephone book that was in the room. “Where are the hookers? We tried hooker, whore house, prostitutes…” At [BayCon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BayCon) years ago we had a panel, _Tales of WorldCon: Why You Don’t Want to Run One_. One of the panelists was the hotel liaison for Nycon 3, in NYC. He showed up one afternoon to do some business with the hotel manager and when they were done, the manager said, “Miss [name] would also like a meeting with you,” a person he’d not met with before. He described her as sort of the shop steward for the local hookers and had come for a price list. “For straight sex it’s this, for a BJ, this and—” “Whoa, whoa,” he interrupted her. “I don’t think we’ll, uh, be needing your services.” She looked at him a moment, mouth open. “What kind of a convention _is_ this?” “A science-fiction convention.” She curled her lip. “Oh, I’ve heard of you guys – you bring your own!” He then said a couple days into the convention he took a walk around the block to get some fresh air and saw, “One of nerdier-looking members talking with a professional lady. Now, I didn’t hear what was said as I approached but the member suddenly said, ‘_How_ much? Do you know how many books I could buy for that?’” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-massage-parlors-in-the-unites-states/938289.md?page=5)