# Why are there more liberals on college campuses? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825 "2005-06-04T02:36:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/81 "2005-06-06T13:33:30Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > I can’t think of one reputable scientific organization that has said pollution is nothing to be concerned about and that our natural resources will last into our great-grandchildren’s lives, but I can think of plenty of politicians who say that, and almost all of them are conservative. Cite of a conservative politician saying that “pollution is nothing to be concerned about?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/82 "2005-06-06T13:39:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But saying humans evolved from apes \*\*is \*\*correct. The commone ancestor of humans and chimps was, itself, an ape. Really? I’m no expert. Is man - _homo sapiens_ - an ape? If the definition of ‘ape’ is that broad, then I imagine you’re correct. I honestly don’t know when I expected, as we back up the line, that ‘ape’ would no longer be applicable to our primate progenitors. Perhaps this is good fodder for GQ - what, precisely, is encompassed by ‘ape’? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/83 "2005-06-06T14:44:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That is because naive liberal idealism tends to evaporate under the cold, harsh reality of the real world. The real world is tough. It does not respect fancy credentials. They get you in the door but you need to perform or your out. I know what you’re saying, but I think you (and MadSam) do academics a disservice to paint their world as being something like a la-la land. Academics have to pay bills, register their cars, keep the lights on, buy groceries, feed their families. Just like other people. They have to deal with standards and expectations and deadlines and politics in their professional realm (the campus, their department, AND their discipline or field), just like people in the corporate world do. Just because there isn’t a standard point-headed boss or a bunch of stockholders doesn’t mean they don’t deal with “the real world.” ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/84 "2005-06-06T15:30:19Z")
> [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > I know what you’re saying, but I think you (and MadSam) do academics a disservice to paint their world as being something like a la-la land. Academics have to pay bills, register their cars, keep the lights on, buy groceries, feed their families. Just like other people. > > They have to deal with standards and expectations and deadlines and politics in their professional realm (the campus, their department, AND their discipline or field), just like people in the corporate world do. > > Just because there isn’t a standard point-headed boss or a bunch of stockholders doesn’t mean they don’t deal with “the real world.” Yeah the whole “academia” versus “the real world” schtick that some people insist on is really tiresome. Academia is no less “real world” than jumping around on a trading floor in a funny-colored vest, or sitting in an office working with spreadsheets, or designing webpages, or whatever. All these jobs are _part_ of the real world. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/85 "2005-06-06T17:39:27Z")
> [@Tom Carroll](#): > > Yes, I read the entire English text book. It’s called, “Patterns for College Writing, a Rhetorical Reader and Guide,” by Laurie G. Kirszner and Stephen R. Mandell. The ISBN is 0-312-40431-X. Stockton, you assume too much. Thank you. For anybody who’s interested, you can persue the table of contents [at Amazon](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/031240431X/ref=sib_rdr_dp/102-2355886-2808108). I count 64 total sample essays, eight of which could be construed to deal with the topic of “Minorities: Exploitation By White People Of.” Including MLK’s _…Birmingham Jail_ and Swift’s _A Modest Proposal_.\* Oh, and the Henry Louis Gates’ appears to be more about _class_ than _race_, but I threw him in there because, you know, he’s black. I can only assume that your “50%” was a typo, and you really meant 12.5%. - Included because, as I learned from _The Commitments_, the Irish are the Blacks of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/86 "2005-06-06T17:40:33Z")
s/persue/peruse/g ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/87 "2005-06-06T18:03:09Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > People with some college training tend to be Republicans, 32 percent to 31 percent while those with at least bachelor’s degrees are Republican, 33 percent to 32 percent. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > But in the social sciences I believe it’s a real problem. How do you reconcile these statements **Sam**? I don’t understand how it is a problem if the majority of people leaving college with a bachelors degree or less are conservative. Obviously the liberal bent of the professors is not having much of an effect. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/88 "2005-06-06T18:34:15Z")
> [@Eyer8](#): > > I don’t understand how it is a problem if the majority of people leaving college with a bachelors degree or less are conservative. Obviously the liberal bent of the professors is not having much of an effect. On the other hand, the longer you remain in academia, the more pronounced their influence seems to be. (Assuming people become liberal as a result of professorial influence.) I expect this to be due to what seems to me to be the main factor for the liberal bent of many universitIes - selection by other liberals. Most undergraduates get into school based on selection by the admissions department, and political affiliation is less important as a selection factor. But the tenured staff have much more influence over who gets to be a grad student, and especially who gets a job offer to teach and get tenured. I expect also that those who tend to find a liberal atmosphere congenial would tend to remain there. Conservatives who have to defend themselves in ways and to degrees that may not apply to liberals are thus more likely to get fed up and go out to get a real job. That may also account partly for the fact that the hard sciences departments are less unbalanced towards liberals than soft sciences like literature or sociology or what not. You can present a definitive answer much more easily in physics or chemistry, and therefore establish a position clearly. Imagine trying to do that with a bunch of post-modernist thinkers. Mike Adams, in his work Welcome to the Ivory Tower of Babel: Confessions of a Conservative College Professor, mentions some instances where the committee deciding on who to hire for teaching positions quite explicitly mentioned that they didn’t want to hire someone who seemed politically conservative (or “[too religious](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/ma20040602.shtml)”). It tends to be self-perpetuating, in other words. A disproportionately liberal staff can exert itself to keep a disproportionate number of like-minded liberals. Rather like the SDMB, in some ways. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/89 "2005-06-06T18:55:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Mike Adams, in his work Welcome to the Ivory Tower of Babel: Confessions of a Conservative College Professor, mentions some instances where the committee deciding on who to hire for teaching positions quite explicitly mentioned that they didn’t want to hire someone who seemed politically conservative (or “[too religious](http://www.townhall.com/columnists/mikeadams/ma20040602.shtml)”). And Bernie Goldberg wrote an entire book about witnessing the “liberal media” without once actually [proving its existence (or even defining the term).](http://www.thinkingpeace.com/Lib/lib015.html) But then, there’s a well-established audience that will lap up any new “confessions of a po’ repressed conservative” book. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/90 "2005-06-06T19:14:38Z")
This is one of the most depressing threads to come up in quite some time. It’s like watching siblings fight over who’s on whose side of the car. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/91 "2005-06-06T19:33:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On the other hand, the longer you remain in academia, the more pronounced their influence seems to be. (Assuming people become liberal as a result of professorial influence.) It’s the latter assumption that I believe is challengable. It seems that students are more affected by their peers than their professors when it comes to having their political ideology molded. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/92 "2005-06-06T20:11:15Z")
> [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > It seems that students are more affected by their peers than their professors when it comes to having their political ideology molded. Can I ask on what do you base this? I wouldn’t necessarily discount the effects of late night bull sessions and so forth on the political development of a student, but my experience is that the articulate and well-prepared debaters have more influence than the average Joe College. And it seems to me that professors, liberal or conservative alike, are going to be disproportionately well-prepared in their arguments and adept in their verbal and debating skills. Thus they have the advantage, by and large, over their younger and less experienced undergraduates. Add to that the power imbalance where they can often compel lip service to their pet bugbears (as described by **Sam Stone** above), and I would expect a professor to exert an influence rather greater than your fellow freshmen. I don’t think it is necessarily an either/or, but I expect a given university or department to develop a reputation as liberal (or conservative) based more on the attitudes of the professors than the students. The students come and go, the professors are there more or less permanently - after all, they have tenure. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/93 "2005-06-06T20:29:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And it seems to me that professors, liberal or conservative alike, are going to be disproportionately well-prepared in their arguments and adept in their verbal and debating skills. Superior debating skills changes the minds of college students? You must have gone to the University of Impressionable State. In my direct experience, nothing short of hydrogen bombs will defuse students from their chosen positions, which are usually taken in accordance with - What will bother their parents the most, - What has the coolest parties and easiest access to cheap beer and weed, and - Pure random chance. Of course, this is just my opinion. But then, so is everything else said in this thread, all of it with a sad lack of verifiable evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/94 "2005-06-06T20:43:44Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Do liberals, on average, have more education than conservatives? As I said in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284246) thread: > [@Polerius](#): > > Some relevant data came out of the Pledge of Allegiance case, from a [poll done by AP](http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/24/scotus.pledge.ap): > So, we have two statements: > (1) College graduates were more likely than those who did not have a > college degree to say the phrase “under God” should be removed. > > (2) Democrats and independents were more likely than Republicans > to think the phrase should be taken out > > Based on the above, my first intuitive feeling was that the above two points > lead to the conclusion > **(C) _The percentage of Democrats who are college graduates is > higher than the percentage of Republicans who are college graduates._** > > Then I thought that there may be some counter-example that disproves > the above conclusion. > > However, after a couple of minutes of writing down the math > (the relevant equations and inequalities), I find that points (1) and (2) > do indeed lead to (C). > > So, if you are a Democrat, it is more likely that you are a college graduate > than if you are a Republican. > > As a corollary, since the number of Democrats and Republicans is roughly > equal (given the 2000 presidential election results), we also see that: > _(C2) If you are a college graduate, it is more likely that you are a Democrat > than a Republican._\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/95 "2005-06-06T20:44:29Z")
No offense, **RickJay** , but as you find the thread depressing, I hope you don’t feel obligated to continue to post to it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/96 "2005-06-06T20:59:08Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > As I said in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284246) thread: The link in your quote doesn’t work. [This one](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html) doesn’t quite bear you out. Kerry seems to have won in the exit polls among two groups - those with no high school, and those in or having had post-graduate studies. But Kerry and Bush seem to have pretty much tied among “all those with a college degree” 49% to 49%. Which tends to indicate that, the longer you are in academia, the more liberal you tend to vote. Standard disclaimer: Not all liberals are Democrats, not all Democrats are liberals, correlation isn’t causality, past results are not a guarantee of future performance, void where taxed or prohibited, etc., etc. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/97 "2005-06-06T21:26:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The link in your quote doesn’t work. Try [this](http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=12989) one. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/98 "2005-06-06T21:35:59Z")
Polerius, are you sure you linked to the correct site? I don’t see anywhere in there where it talks about education levels. > [@](#): > > Poll: Keep ‘under God’ in Pledge of Allegiance > > By The Associated Press > 03.24.04 > WASHINGTON — Americans overwhelmingly want the phrase “under God” preserved in the Pledge of Allegiance, a new poll says as the Supreme Court examines whether the classroom salute crosses the division of church and state. > > Almost nine in 10 people said the reference to God belongs in the pledge despite constitutional questions about the separation of church and state, according to an Associated Press poll. > > The AP poll, conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs, found college graduates were more likely than those who did not have a college degree to say the phrase “under God” should be removed. Democrats and independents were more likely than Republicans to think the phrase should be taken out. > > The AP-Ipsos poll question: > > "Now, a question about the Pledge of Allegiance. The Supreme Court hears arguments later this month in a case involving the Pledge of Allegiance and the Constitution’s separation of church and state provision. Justices are being asked to decide whether it’s unconstitutional for public school children to recite the pledge because it contains the phrase ‘under God.’ Do you think the phrase under God … " > “Should remain in the Pledge of Allegiance,” 87%. > “Should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance,” 12%. > “Not sure,” 1%. Was it in one of the links on that page? All this shows to me is that an overwhelming majority of Americans appearently want to keep ‘under god’ in the pledge. With that kind of majority we aren’t just talking Republicans after all…or if we are, the Dems might as well pack up and go home. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/99 "2005-06-06T21:40:49Z")
> [@WeRSauron](#): > > conservatives have their views ridiculed… > pompous, arrogant, holier-than-thou academians [read: liberals] Yes, poor conservatives, have their views ridiculed by arrogant liberals who look down on them: **msmith537** : “That is because \*naive liberal idealism \*tends to evaporate under the cold, harsh reality of the real world … While conservatives are off creating business, _liberals are whining_” **WeRSauron** : “While the _real world_ (in the USA at least) doesn’t take communism, socialism, and _other such theories all that seriously, they are taken seriously by those in academia_” **Tom Carroll** : “liberals can only ridicule views, and _not provide logical arguments against them because they have none._” **MadSam** : “I believe that the teachers and professors are generally bright but _not necessarily in the business world_” Hmm, who is being arrogant and condescending towards the other side? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825/100 "2005-06-06T21:41:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Polerius, are you sure you linked to the correct site? I don’t see anywhere in there where it talks about education levels. It says: “The AP poll, conducted by Ipsos-Public Affairs, found college graduates were more likely than those who did not have a college degree to say the phrase “under God” should be removed. Democrats and independents were more likely than Republicans to think the phrase should be taken out.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-more-liberals-on-college-campuses/306825.md?page=6)