# Why are there not more Muslims in Spain? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 18, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465 "2017-01-18T13:52:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/1 "2017-01-18T13:52:36Z")
According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Religion) in modern Spain 67.8% identify themselves as Roman Catholics, 27.5% as having no religion, and a meagre 2.2% are lumped into the Other Religions category. Yet the major part of Spain was Muslim for centuries. I know the Inquisition in Spain was pretty ruthless after the Reconquista but one would have imagined that huge numbers of Muslims would have kept their faith privately and practiced it in secret. So where did all the Muslims go? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/2 "2017-01-18T13:57:22Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain#Religion) in modern Spain 67.8% identify themselves as Roman Catholics, 27.5% as having no religion, and a meagre 2.2% are lumped into the Other Religions category. > > Yet the major part of Spain was Muslim for centuries. I know the Inquisition in Spain was pretty ruthless after the Reconquista but one would have imagined that huge numbers of Muslims would have kept their faith privately and practiced it in secret. > > So where did all the Muslims go? You answered your question. Forced conversions and expulsions for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/3 "2017-01-18T14:02:48Z")
> [@](#): > > the indigenous practice of Islam is considered to have been effectively extinguished by the 19th century. > **[Islam in Spain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Spain)** > > Spain is a Christian majority country, with Islam being a minority religion, practised mostly by immigrants from Muslim majority countries, and their descendants. > Islam was a major religion on the Iberian Peninsula, beginning with the Umayyad conquest of Hispania and ending (at least overtly) with its prohibition by the modern Spanish state in the mid-16th century and the expulsion of the Moriscos in the early 17th century, an ethnic and religious minority of around 500,000 people. Although a... That article also details the various ways and times Muslims were pressured to convert or emigrate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/4 "2017-01-18T14:29:38Z")
That seems pretty low for a Western European country. Does or did Spain limit immigration in ways that countries like Germany or Denmark didn’t? Were Muslim emigrants from NEMA just not drawn to Spain as they were to other countries? I know France has large number of Muslims since they had colonies in North Africa, and of course Germany had its famous Guest Worker program that attracted lots of Turks. Any thoughts about Spain and it’s low number of Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/5 "2017-01-18T14:38:09Z")
The Moors once occupied most of Spain and France, but losing the Battle of Tours around 730 CE sent them packing… and those that didn’t pack were packed out over the following centuries. They’ve never had a reason to return and IIRC, were still openly unwelcome into the early 20th century. ETA: Some classical historians consider that battle to have changed European history more than most other events - had al-Rahman won, Europe would have likely gone Muslim, and the long fallow period (“Dark Ages”) would likely have been avoided. But Charles Martel won, and for a thousand years we said our matins regularly and did little else. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/6 "2017-01-18T15:14:17Z")
Nobody expects the … ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/7 "2017-01-18T15:33:47Z")
The Moors were an occupying force over top of a local population. I don’t recall reading about any wholesale immigration of working-class types. As invaders, once they were expelled there was a general purge to get rid of any vestige of the invaders. Perhaps a Spanish resident can chime in here, but also consider that unlike Christianity, Muslims had a bit more of a “live and let live” policy with rival (monotheistic) religions. Not sure whether there were forced conversions of the locals; if not, then the majority of converts would have been locals hoping to curry favor, merchants and rich people - just the sort to be persecuted (or convert back) once the Christians regained control. (For example, St. Catherine’s Monastery at the base of Mt. Sinai got a letter from the Prophet himself granting the monks the right to be left in peace to practice their religion.) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/8 "2017-01-18T15:40:02Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Perhaps a Spanish resident can chime in here, but also consider that unlike Christianity, Muslims had a bit more of a “live and let live” policy with rival (monotheistic) religions. Other religions were sometimes restricted to certain areas of the city and/or taxed, but Islam was widely tolerant of other religions. It’s pretty much only after the long history of being hunted down and persecuted as “infidels” (the Crusades) that they turned hostile to Christians, Jews and others in their populations. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/9 "2017-01-18T15:43:12Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > ETA: Some classical historians consider that battle to have changed European history more than most other events - had al-Rahman won, Europe would have likely gone Muslim, and the long fallow period (“Dark Ages”) would likely have been avoided. But Charles Martel won, and for a thousand years we said our matins regularly and did little else. I doubt it, on a bunch of levels. First of all, the invasion of Aquitaine was a punitive raid, to punish the Duke for supporting a Berber rebel. Second, there were no “Dark Ages”. There was substantial technological and social change in the thousand years after the battle of Tours. Third, you’re overstating the development of Muslim Spain. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/10 "2017-01-18T15:57:21Z")
Most of the muslims in the Peninsular came from peoples who had been christian before that, and Roman pagan before that — unlike the invaders from North Africa ( who of course had been christian long before Islam, and Roman pagan before that [And North Africa was a _crucial_ centre of christianity as was the Near East] if equally intolerant with the Donatists being particularly puritan ) — so changing your religion when surrounded by spears was not always that big a deal. Had they come back from Grenada and reconquered Spain, even at that late date people would have fallen into line, which is why Ferdinand and Isabella, and Charles V and his son, were so intolerant — particularly with the two latter facing off against the Ottoman across the Mediterranean — one false move and Christendom would be lost. So they expelled people, a lot, and persecuted conversos whose hearts weren’t in it. The one obsession that remained with the late Osama bin-Laden to the very end was the Loss of Andalus, Fairest of all Lands any muslim ever stole. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The Moors once occupied most of Spain and France, but losing the Battle of Tours around 730 CE sent them packing… and those that didn’t pack were packed out over the following centuries. They’ve never had a reason to return and IIRC, were still openly unwelcome into the early 20th century. > > ETA: Some classical historians consider that battle to have changed European history more than most other events - had al-Rahman won, Europe would have likely gone Muslim, and the long fallow period (“Dark Ages”) would likely have been avoided. But Charles Martel won, and for a thousand years we said our matins regularly and did little else. Then, without the 12th century monks we wouldn’t have had the Scientific Revolution. The muslims never got near, any more than the Chinese or Aztecs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/11 "2017-01-18T16:17:24Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > The Moors were an occupying force over top of a local population. I don’t recall reading about any wholesale immigration of working-class types. Berbers. But lots of native Iberians converted to Islam as well. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/12 "2017-01-18T16:24:23Z")
FWIW, the descendants of expelled Jews in the Spanish diaspora (_that_ diaspora) were officially “un-expelled” not too long ago. IIRC, any such descendant is entitled to full citizenship; how such info is acceptably documented I have no idea. Not unlike, of course, that other country which offers full citizenship for an even bigger diaspora. But ditto on the documentation. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/13 "2017-01-18T16:56:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That seems pretty low for a Western European country. Does or did Spain limit immigration in ways that countries like Germany or Denmark didn’t? Were Muslim emigrants from NEMA just not drawn to Spain as they were to other countries? > > I know France has large number of Muslims since they had colonies in North Africa, and of course Germany had its famous Guest Worker program that attracted lots of Turks. Any thoughts about Spain and it’s low number of Muslims? Spain hasn’t exactly been a power house of the European economy in the last decades, so not the first choice for economic migration. It’s not a desirable destination for immigrants/fugitives entering Europe from the south east, being way in the west and in an economic depression, and it has been dealing harshly with attempted immigration through Morocco. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/14 "2017-01-18T17:30:06Z")
Actually, there have been periods in those last few decades in which we’ve received ridiculous amounts of immigration; in the late 1990s our population jumped almost 20% in relationship to the last previous decades, thanks to the economic bubble’s double effect of deciding people who’d been holding back to finally have babies and to its draw on immigration. Those years have changed the country’s racial landscape for the foreseeable future, even though one of the things that happened when the bubble burst is that many immigrants grabbed their savings and returned home to open that little business they’d always dreamed of. The previous 100 years though, and maybe even the previous 200, we weren’t a desirable location except if you were fleeing from a war. Between the emigrations of the 19th and 20th centuries, Erasmus, brain drain… it’s kind of difficult to find a Spaniard who doesn’t know of relatives abroad (even if contact has been lost). When someone gets raving xenophobic, the spinal reflex of many is “oh yeah? What, your family was the only one where nobody went to Switzerland?” We were an E-migration country; it’s only in the last two decades that we became an IM-migration country again, and currently the inflow and outflow are pretty much even. That reference to “eliminated by the 19th century” seems to exclude the African areas we still held at the time, which were and remain majority-Muslim. Currently, our biggest “sources” of Muslims are Ceuta and Melilla (our remaining toeholds in Africa) and immigration. [This pdf from INE](http://www.ine.es/prensa/np980.pdf) includes in page 4 a small table showing the largest immigrant nationalities in Spain. INE collates continuous-census information from every township in the country to make this report and [this](http://www.ine.es/jaxi/Tabla.htm?path=/t20/e245/p04/provi/l0/&file=0ccaa002.px&L=0)nifty webpage (choose sex in first column, province in the second one, nationality in the third). People who have Spanish nationality aren’t counted for any additional ones. In the pdf’s table, the only Muslim-majority country listed is Morocco (includes Saharauis). We get a lot more immigrants from Europe or Latin America than from majority-Muslim countries other than our neighbor; the Euros don’t need a Visa, the Latinos already speak the language and may be entitled to quick paths to nationality. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/15 "2017-01-18T17:53:42Z")
Hey Nava, IRL-personal-up-to-you-reply questions: are you Spanish (“we” in your post) by birth/young child residence, or an immigrant–from the US perhaps? You are so comfortable in both worlds it seems to me, and rightly are one of the first persons paged around here. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/16 "2017-01-18T19:12:59Z")
I suppose we can contrast this with Bosnia, where there is an appreciable Muslim population as a residual effect of being part of the Turkish empire for generations… As I said, my impression of Spanish history, what little I know, is that the Berber occupiers did not initiate a wholesale conversion of the peasant-level population to Islam; they were tolerant of other religions. …or was it the case that the population were forcibly re-converted by the Christian re-occupiers? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/17 "2017-01-18T19:58:07Z")
With the expulsion of the Muslims from Spain, why did Spain become Romance instead of reverting to Visigothic? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/18 "2017-01-18T20:57:56Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > As I said, my impression of Spanish history, what little I know, is that the Berber occupiers did not initiate a wholesale conversion of the peasant-level population to Islam; Wholesale, no. Partial, yes. But as with many other similar areas converting back was less of a hardship for some, especially peasantry and especially after the psychological effects of heavy defeats and strong repression. Mix in some expulsions of die-hards and the occasional forced conversion and populations swing back. The actual numbers of Muslims in Spain at the height of Muslim rule is controversial, but it was undoubtedly a substantial proportion of the population. There is a theoretical model called a Bulliet curve that estimates that by 1100 Muslims would have formed a sizeable majority of the population. But that model was created based on different geographic areas with different demographic influences. For Spain it has been criticized as being perhaps a bit overstated in terms of raw numbers. Regardless one can assume Muslim populations, both absolutely and proportionally, were on decline from at least the mid-12th century as the Reconquista picked up stream. So this was a steady decline over many centuries until the final denouement and included correspondingly a substantial increase in the Christian populace by natural expansion. Castille was adding bodies much faster than Andalusia towards the end of this period. > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > With the expulsion of the Muslims from Spain, why did Spain become Romance instead of reverting to Visigothic? Because the Visigoths et al. really _were_ a thin veneer in Spain. They were just swamped out culturally by the vastly more populous Latinate substrate. That would have almost certainly have happened on its own, but the Muslim conquest hastened it considerably as one ruling minority was replaced with another. Now an _ideal_ of “Gothic” ancestry was actually much prized by the 16th century Spanish nobility, to the point were it was actually lampooned at times ( similarly an ideal of Arab ancestry had been much prized in Muslim Spain, even though the majority of Muslim emigrants to Spain were Berbers ). But that had little to due with the Visigothic culture per se. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/19 "2017-01-19T00:06:30Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Wholesale, no. Partial, yes. But as with many other similar areas converting back was less of a hardship for some, especially peasantry and especially after the psychological effects of heavy defeats and strong repression. Mix in some expulsions of die-hards and the occasional forced conversion and populations swing back. The actual numbers of Muslims in Spain at the height of Muslim rule is controversial, but it was undoubtedly a substantial proportion of the population. I believe in the case of Spain specifically, there was a strong tendency for Muslim rulers to undercut conversion in reality by overly-enthusiastic enforcement of Islamic rules. Repeatedly, Spanish Muslims called in military forces from North Africa, with a particularly aggressive form of Islam, to support their rule. > [@](#): > > That would have almost certainly have happened on its own, but the Muslim conquest hastened it considerably as one ruling minority was replaced with another. Well, that and Goths sort of collapsed entirely during the initial conquest by Muslims. Frankly, Spain probably could never have been subdued considering the logistics involved and the sheer scale of Gothic resources. See the incredible difficulty of Justinian in trying to retake Italy, despite having theoretically ample resources, brilliant commanders, and divided opposition. But the Gothic rulers were so completely ineffectual that the invading Umayyads took them apart like a wet paper towel. While they were around for much longer, though, the new bosses were in some ways like the old ones: they seem to have partly kept to themselves, as a military, economic, and cultural elite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465/20 "2017-01-19T00:19:26Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I suppose we can contrast this with Bosnia, where there is an appreciable Muslim population as a residual effect of being part of the Turkish empire for generations… > > As I said, my impression of Spanish history, what little I know, is that the Berber occupiers did not initiate a wholesale conversion of the peasant-level population to Islam; they were tolerant of other religions. …or was it the case that the population were forcibly re-converted by the Christian re-occupiers? The occupiers were Arab, and they set the rules. The Berbers were brought in to do the dirty work. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-not-more-muslims-in-spain/777465.md?page=2)