# Why are there so few ocean liners left sailing? (I think there is only one currently) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933 "2023-06-02T22:19:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/1 "2023-06-02T22:19:18Z")
My family was looking at possibly taking a cruise together. No one in my family goes on cruises so we thought this might be interesting. In researching it we looked at the Queen Mary 2 run by Cunard and I was surprised to learn that it is the only ocean liner left in the world (near as I could find anyway). All others are deemed “cruise ships.” The only distinction I could find is ocean liners run lower in the water and are more stable. I did see a [review of the Queen Mary 2](https://youtu.be/VrBXLQWHdZc?t=490) (YouTube) by someone who takes loads of cruises and she claimed it was, by far, the most stable ship she had ever been on and that was even in some high seas on her trip (her last trip on a cruise ship in similar weather had her sea-sick for a couple days…not so here). Sounds good to me so why aren’t there more of them? Sounds like a great design for a passenger ship. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/2 "2023-06-02T22:27:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The only distinction I could find is ocean liners run lower in the water and are more stable. Ocean liners are made to transport people _and_ goods, not just people. But it’s an expensive way to transport goods, given other options. We’ve never been on a cruise, but we’ve watched lots of Emma Cruises videos…call it vicarious cruising I guess. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/3 "2023-06-02T22:58:00Z")
My guess, based on the ads I’ve seen, is it’s because the Queen Mary 2 isn’t 30 stories high with room for 5,000 passengers and therefore doesn’t make enough money. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2023, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/4 "2023-06-02T23:16:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The only distinction I could find is ocean liners run lower in the water and are more stable. As I understand it, cruise ships are meant explicitly for leisure travel. They start at one port, sail around to a bunch of touristy destinations, and return to the same port. Ocean liners on the other hand, are at least ostensibly meant for _transportation_, for getting passengers from Point A to Point B, across oceans. You’ll notice the Queen Mary 2 does the transatlantic crossing from Southampton to New York. And that’s why there aren’t any others; ocean liners were made obsolete by air travel. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/5 "2023-06-02T23:34:39Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > As I understand it, cruise ships are meant explicitly for leisure travel. They start at one port, sail around to a bunch of touristy destinations, and return to the same port. > > Ocean liners on the other hand, are at least ostensibly meant for _transportation_, for getting passengers from Point A to Point B, across oceans. You’ll notice the Queen Mary 2 does the transatlantic crossing from Southampton to New York. And that’s why there aren’t any others; ocean liners were made obsolete by air travel. This is my understanding, as well. Also, the Queen Mary 2 is a lot smaller (as far as passenger capacity) than modern cruise ships - QM2 carries 2,695 passengers, while modern cruise ships frequently have a passenger capacity of 4000+, and the biggest hold nearly 6,000. Ocean liners are nearly extinct, for the same reason that long-haul passenger trains are nearly extinct in the U.S. – jetliners get you there _far_ faster. The QM2 clearly serves a niche audience; I’d guess it’s a mix of people who love the “romance” or nostalgia angle of ocean travel, and a few who want to make the trip from America to England (or vice-versa), but don’t like flying. Unlike a cruise ship – which, as noted, is basically a floating casino/hotel which takes guests from one destination to another – taking an ocean liner from New York to England is essentially a week at sea, all on board ship. It’s a very pretty hotel, which takes you seven days longer to reach your destination than a flight would. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2023, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/6 "2023-06-02T23:40:29Z")
Another alternative is to take a freighter which also carries passengers: > **[Freighter Travel Costs And Questions](https://www.gonomad.com/1560-freighter-travel-faqs)** > > Freighter Travel: Many questions about freighter cruises are answered , ie, working on a freighter, cheap freighter travel, and freighter cargo ship travel. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/7 "2023-06-03T06:43:30Z")
I’d definitely consider this as something to do on my own. I doubt I’d get the family to all want to do it. Does seem really intriguing though. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/8 "2023-06-03T06:55:22Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > Ocean liners on the other hand, are at least ostensibly meant for _transportation_, for getting passengers from Point A to Point B, across oceans. So, “ocean liner” is more about the routes it takes and less about the design of the ship? (Although the routes it is meant to take may well inform the design of the ship I would think.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/9 "2023-06-03T07:29:25Z")
There are cruise ships that cross the ocean a couple of times per year, sailing around Europe for half a year, then sailing the Caribbean the other half. These voyages are often very cheap. > **[Wind Surf | Small Cruise Ship | Windstar Cruise Line](https://www.windstarcruises.com/ships/wind-surf/)** > > Wind Surf is the largest sailing cruise ship in the world and is Windstar's flagship. Holding 310 guest in 154 Staterooms. That’s the Wind Surf, a small cruise ship ~300 passengers. It’s a luxury sailing vessel that can travel on wind power alone, wind and diesel, or diesel alone. It also has stabilizers that make it really comfortable. We did a cruise on it, and I’ll never go on a large ship cruise. This was like being in the best hotel in the world. Five star service, the best food I ever had, no lineups anywhere, etc. Just fantastic. A 14-night cruise from St. Maartin to Lisbon is $2499. If my wife and I decide to visit Europe, that’s probably how we’ll go. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/10 "2023-06-03T12:27:49Z")
Cruise lines (at least Royal Caribbean - presumably others) have repositioning cruises. I was signed up for one that went from Vancouver(?) to Japan – but then covid hit. I put deposit down for one later this year > **[Transatlantic and Transpacific Cruises | Royal Caribbean Cruises](https://www.royalcaribbean.com/transatlantic-transpacific-cruises)** > > Transatlantic and Transpacific cruises offer a wealth of relaxing days at sea, punctuated by stops at ports that let you explore the local culture and the natural thrills of each area. Brian ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/11 "2023-06-03T12:39:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@WildaBeast](#): > > > > Ocean liners on the other hand, are at least ostensibly meant for _transportation_, for getting passengers from Point A to Point B, across oceans. > > So, “ocean liner” is more about the routes it takes and less about the design of the ship? (Although the routes it is meant to take may well inform the design of the ship I would think.) It’s also about the design of the ship, as an ocean liner must be rugged enough to travel its route regardless of conditions. From Wikipedia: " they must be able to travel between continents from point A to point B on a fixed schedule, so must be faster and built to withstand the rough seas and adverse conditions encountered on long voyages across the open ocean.[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_liner#cite_note-Robin-2) To protect against large waves they usually have a higher [hull](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_(ship)) and promenade deck with higher positioning of lifeboats (the height above water called the [freeboard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeboard_(nautical))), as well as a longer bow than a cruise ship.[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_liner#cite_note-Robin-2) Additionally, for additional strength they are often designed with thicker hull plating than is found on cruise ships, as well as a deeper [draft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_(hull)) for greater stability, and have large capacities for fuel, food, and other consumables on long voyages.[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_liner#cite_note-Robin-2) On an ocean liner, the captain’s tower (bridge) is usually positioned on the upper deck for increased visibility.[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_liner#cite_note-Robin-2)" ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/12 "2023-06-03T12:58:54Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Ocean liners are nearly extinct, for the same reason that long-haul passenger trains are nearly extinct in the U.S. – jetliners get you there _far_ faster. The QM2 clearly serves a niche audience; I’d guess it’s a mix of people who love the “romance” or nostalgia angle of ocean travel, and a few who want to make the trip from America to England (or vice-versa), but don’t like flying. Another market is for people who travel with pets, and don’t want to take the risks associated with putting their dog on a plane. I had friends who moved to England, and they used the QM2 for this reason. A week at sea with their dog was preferable to them than dealing with the stress of air travel. Apparently this is more common than most people realize. They even had special photo sessions for getting a picture of the dog on the ship. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/13 "2023-06-03T14:43:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s also about the design of the ship, as an ocean liner must be rugged enough to travel its route regardless of conditions. But the design is mostly about speed. The whole point of liners for the one hundred years they were relevant is that they were the fastest way to get across an ocean. This is also why, like airliners, they travel in as straight a line as possible, which is where they get their name. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/14 "2023-06-03T19:13:54Z")
Both speed and ruggedness really. Going by the link, part of going fast in a straight line is not having to navigate around rough seas. ---
**Author:** ![Oooklout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ba8739/32.png) [@Oooklout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oooklout)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/15 "2023-06-03T20:04:45Z")
Sure, the difference is that the Queen Mary 2 is a proper ship, and when flying was stopped the liner was the fastest way from Southampton to New York — four days or less is possible, even through N Atlantic storms if less comfortably. Normal days they go slow, to extend the enjoyment and up the bar bills. She also has a second role as a hospital ship which could mean deployment literally anywhere. People also move house across the Pond by liner because baggage goes free: furniture, cars and grand piano. As mentioned, some people can’t or don’t fly. We were cancelled due to Covid, but had planned to make the return leg to UK via the QM2. They flew us back in style instead. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/16 "2023-06-03T20:07:52Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Another market is for people who travel with pets, and don’t want to take the risks associated with putting their dog on a plane. I can certainly believe that, though I suspect it’s a very small niche audience, in the absolute. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2023, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/17 "2023-06-03T21:32:21Z")
Allow me to recommend David Macaulay’s excellent _Crossing on Time,_ an informative and very well-illustrated book on the development, rise and (mostly) fall of ocean liners. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/18 "2023-06-04T13:09:26Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > …taking an ocean liner from New York to England is essentially a week at sea That’s the stated transit time for the Queen Mary 2, though it’s capable of making the crossing in 5 days. Way back in 1952, the United States accomplished an Atlantic crossing in less than 3 1/2 days. By contrast, the paddle steamer Great Western (considered by some to be the first true ocean liner) took 14 days during its heyday in the 1830s-1840s. There was no refrigeration available so it carried chickens for eggs and cows for fresh milk, possibly contributing to a memorable set of aromas by voyage’s end. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/19 "2023-06-04T13:24:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sounds like a great design for a passenger ship. It’s a less profitable design for a passenger-only ship, because there’s less space for passengers. And probably fewer cabins with a view, too. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933/20 "2023-06-04T14:40:21Z")
One of the reasons transatlantic liners turned out to be unsuitable for conversion to Armed Merchant Cruisers in 1939 was that by then they transited so fast that they didn’t have food and water storage capacity for more than a few days sailing (lack of compartmentalisation and anything more than a rudimentary fire control system being just as important). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-so-few-ocean-liners-left-sailing-i-think-there-is-only-one-currently/984933.md?page=2)