# Why are there still navigators on Air Force planes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041 "2012-10-27T12:49:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/1 "2012-10-27T12:49:02Z")
Navigators (who are officers) still fly on Air Force planes: [http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjobs/a/12xx.htm](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjobs/a/12xx.htm) Why? Navigators haven’t been on aircrews in civilian aviation for, I’d guess, decades? GPS has been around for quite some time, what does the navigator do that a $100 GPS device from RadioShack can’t? ---
**Author:** ![butler1850](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@butler1850](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butler1850)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/2 "2012-10-27T15:45:57Z")
Spare set of hands in the event of a pilot/copilot injury. Another resource for working radios/calling checklists/operating defensive systems, etc… The plane was designed for it, so why remove the person who could be useful? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/3 "2012-10-27T16:13:24Z")
A GPS can’t plan a route to attack a target from under the radar from a certain direction and fly out in another direction between anti-aircraft locations then get you on the right heading and altitude to intercept a Mig. Or something like that. GPS more or less just finds your spot on a map. Navigation uses your spot on a map to plan what to do next. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/4 "2012-10-27T16:28:35Z")
And a GPS can’t help you sing “She’s lost that loving feeling” at a bar and help you pick up hot chicks. As others have said another set of hands IMO is a big deal. Now, in peace time, tooling around in the sky two people is probably a bit of overkill. But when the shit hits the fan and its your life on the line and the mission has to be done, I am rather sure two heads, four eyes, 20 fingers, and a penis or two come in mighty handy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/5 "2012-10-27T18:16:30Z")
The job of a navigator is not to tell you where you _are,_ it’s to tell you how to _get to_ where you want to go, next. The pilot is frequently too busy flying the plane, while avoiding enemy fire, to be able to work the navigation instruments that will tell him how to get to where he wants to go. Civilian airliners have much simpler piloting and navigational requirements, so the pilot can do the job himself. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/6 "2012-10-27T18:17:28Z")
Pilots can be full of themselves. They need someone to tell them where to go. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/7 "2012-10-27T18:52:38Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And a GPS can’t help you sing “She’s lost that loving feeling” at a bar and help you pick up hot chicks. > > As others have said another set of hands IMO is a big deal. Now, in peace time, tooling around in the sky two people is probably a bit of overkill. But when the shit hits the fan and its your life on the line and the mission has to be done, I am rather sure two heads, four eyes, 20 fingers, and a penis or two come in mighty handy. When it comes to navigators, I don’t tend to think of the guy in the back seat of a fighter. That’s usually a Weapon Systems Operator (although it is under Fighter Navigator from the OP’s link), who does more than just navigate. The Air Force also has planes for cargo, bombing, refueling, and surveillance, most of which predate GPS. (The C-17 is quite new, but most of the rest go back decades. And do they have any manned surveillance aircraft anymore?) So in addition to the reasons given, the planes and mission profiles were designed at a time when a human navigator was necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/8 "2012-10-27T20:47:31Z")
Main big USAF cargo planes now are C-5 and C-17 and they have no navigator. The smaller C-130 had navigators in the past , not sure if they still have them. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/9 "2012-10-27T22:46:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Pilots can be full of themselves. They need someone to tell them where to go. Or where they are going: “[To Hell, by compass!](http://uwex.us/s5.html)” ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/10 "2012-10-27T23:18:47Z")
> [@](#): > > A **Combat Systems Officer (CSO)** is an aeronautically [rated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Aeronautical_Ratings) officer in the [U.S. Air Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force), having been previously known by the title **Navigator**. CSOs are responsible for in-flight air operations and aircraft mission/weapon systems, and is the new rated designation for [Navigators](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_officer), [Electronic Warfare Officers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Warfare_Officer), and [Weapon Systems Officers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_systems_officer) who complete Undergraduate Combat Systems Officer Training (UCSOT) with the [Air Education and Training Command](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Education_and_Training_Command)’s [479th Flying Training Group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/479th_Flying_Training_Group) (479 FTG) at [Naval Air Station Pensacola](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Pensacola), Florida. > > CSO training merges three previous USAF navigator training tracks formerly known as the Navigator (NAV) track, the Weapon Systems Officer (WSO) track and the Electronic Warfare Officer (EWO) track into one coherent training cycle in order to produce an aeronautically rated officer who is more versatile. Parallel navigator and WSO training tracks ended in 2009. > **[Combat systems officer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Systems_Officer)** > > A Combat Systems Officer (CSO) is a flight member of an aircrew in the United States Air Force and is the mission commander in many multi-crew aircraft. The combat systems officer manages the mission and integrates systems and crew with the aircraft commander to collectively achieve and maintain situational awareness and mission effectiveness. CSOs are trained in piloting, navigation, the use of the electromagnetic spectrum, and are experts in weapon system employment on their specific airf In... ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/11 "2012-10-27T23:20:34Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > The job of a navigator is not to tell you where you _are,_ it’s to tell you how to _get to_ where you want to go, next. The pilot is frequently too busy flying the plane, while avoiding enemy fire, to be able to work the navigation instruments that will tell him how to get to where he wants to go. > > Civilian airliners have much simpler piloting and navigational requirements, so the pilot can do the job himself. Military planes are more likely to need to adapt to changing circumstances that might require serious professional thought. A military aircraft might need to make it to some location and drop a bomb, drop troops, or make a pickup while avoiding or destroying the enemy. If the plane encounters heavier antiaircraft fire on the planned route than expected then the navigator might need to determine if a more circuitous route (say, around the mountains) is feasible given mission time constraints and fuel constraints. A civilian aircraft that encounters antiaircraft fire is probably more concerned with just getting out of range and calling air traffic control for help. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/12 "2012-10-27T23:42:57Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > A civilian aircraft that encounters antiaircraft fire is probably more concerned with just getting out of range and calling air traffic control for help. Precisely my point. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/13 "2012-10-27T23:48:04Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Navigators (who are officers) still fly on Air Force planes: > > [http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjobs/a/12xx.htm](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/officerjobs/a/12xx.htm) > > Why? They have a union. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/14 "2012-10-28T11:23:22Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Navigators haven’t been on aircrews in civilian aviation for, I’d guess, decades? GPS has been around for quite some time, what does the navigator do that a $100 GPS device from RadioShack can’t? A large part of the process of acquiring just a regular, non-commercial, private pilot license is successfully learning navigation. You have to pass written exams about it, and usually the last major hurtle to getting your license is completing your so-called ‘solo cross-country’ whereby you have to fly & navigate thru several way-points along a fairly long distance flight (not actually ‘across the country’ though). I assume \*without \*cheating via a GPS. 😃 So in civilian aviation, although the flight engineer in most newer airliners has been replaced by computers, both the pilot & first officer are also considered fully qualified navigators by default. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/15 "2012-10-28T15:25:09Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And a GPS can’t help you sing “She’s lost that loving feeling” at a bar and help you pick up hot chicks. > > As others have said another set of hands IMO is a big deal. Now, in peace time, tooling around in the sky two people is probably a bit of overkill. But when the shit hits the fan and its your life on the line and the mission has to be done, I am rather sure two heads, four eyes, 20 fingers, and **a penis or two come in mighty handy**. [Why?](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.calmsolutions.ch/images/USAF2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.calmsolutions.ch/indexcstempoff.html&usg=__uppKv-tcMznl89N10TOIWLk4KPk=&h=612&w=800&sz=438&hl=en&start=6&zoom=1&tbnid=ohjicLVaosJW8M:&tbnh=140&tbnw=186&ei=nk2NUNmVEo-F0QGN1IGQDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfemale%2Bflight%2Bcrew%26tbnh%3D129%26tbnw%3D182%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26sig%3D111781406145859150172%26biw%3D1430%26bih%3D693%26tbs%3Dsimg:CAQSEgnszUgeUTMU7iF9fS4Atv8udg%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1149&vpy=185&dur=2847&hovh=196&hovw=257&tx=149&ty=130&sig=111781406145859150172&page=1&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:64) ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-there-still-navigators-on-air-force-planes/639041/16 "2012-10-28T22:47:06Z")
Joysticks. They need something to fly the plane with.