# Why are they rioting in London? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096 "2011-08-09T16:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/21 "2011-08-09T21:15:31Z")
They’re rioting for the same reason people riot when their team wins/loses the big game: it’s fun to smash things and you can loot some sweet swag. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/22 "2011-08-09T21:46:21Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > You’ve got one in nine young black males in prison already - wtf does it take to rise up. The degree of passivity and acceptance in the USA is quite staggering from a European pov. IMO. Hey, that’s not fair! We’ve had quite a few riots over the past 20 years or so, and several of them were race related! Seriously though, what do you think black people should be doing? Are you suggesting they should be rioting more? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/23 "2011-08-09T22:32:56Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The only guns or bullets we have evidence for at the scene are police weapons. As for him, well, he isn’t in a position to comment. That’s not true. The independent police complaints commission issued [a statement](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/mark-duggan-police-ipcc) earlier. There’s no evidence _yet_ that he fired at police, but certainly he had a loaded (illegal) handgun. As for the riots, all this stuff about job prospects and heavy-handed police is BS; my brother works in the bull ring in birmingham and was telling me about mobs mugging and beating ordinary people as well as all the looting. That’s making a political statement?! What it’s about is that there’s a proportion of people in our society – like all societies – that are thugs. The difference now is that with FB and blackberry such people can very quickly mass. We’ve had three sets of riots in fairly quick succession – tuition fees, the financial crisis and now the duggan shooting. In all cases there were some peaceful protests but some anarchists who show up and use the whole thing as an excuse to kick off. Not only should we use plastic bullets, water cannon etc, we should set up a rapid response force that can quickly do the same thing when the next wave of riots inevitably start. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/24 "2011-08-09T22:37:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > As for the riots, all this stuff about job prospects and heavy-handed police is BS; my brother works in the bull ring in birmingham and was telling me about mobs mugging and beating ordinary people as well as all the looting. That’s making a political statement?! That’s the sort of thing mobs _do_. Regardless of how good the original reason for people getting angry, once the mob violence gets going it just turns into smash-burn-and-loot. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/25 "2011-08-09T22:57:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s the sort of thing mobs _do_. Regardless of how good the original reason for people getting angry, once the mob violence gets going it just turns into smash-burn-and-loot. Yeah but the proportion of opportunists here seems very high. And I dispute that there is a good reason for this set of riots. It’s awful that a father of four was killed by police but the presence of a loaded handgun gives reason to suspect that they probably had cause to. I wouldn’t personally join even the peaceful protests (though I might do depending on the findings of the investigation). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/26 "2011-08-09T23:36:51Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It’s awful that a father of four was killed by police but the presence of a loaded handgun gives reason to suspect that they probably had cause to. Even in the US mere _possession_ of a handgun, even an illegal one, is not considered justification for summary execution. It might given the London police cause to _arrest_, but shoot him? Only if he was _actually_ a threat to police is there any basis for justifying a shooting here, and even that could be questioned. Actually SHOOTING at the police is a different matter, but as noted, it has not been \*proved \*that the man Duggan was doing any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/27 "2011-08-10T00:09:27Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Even in the US mere _possession_ of a handgun, even an illegal one, is not considered justification for summary execution. It might given the London police cause to _arrest_, but shoot him? > > Only if he was _actually_ a threat to police is there any basis for justifying a shooting here, and even that could be questioned. Actually SHOOTING at the police is a different matter, but as noted, it has not been \*proved \*that the man Duggan was doing any such thing. Well American police have shot and killed people if they though say someone was reaching for a gun (or something like a gun). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/28 "2011-08-10T00:20:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Even in the US mere _possession_ of a handgun, even an illegal one, is not considered justification for summary execution. It might given the London police cause to _arrest_, but shoot him? > > Only if he was _actually_ a threat to police is there any basis for justifying a shooting here, and even that could be questioned. Actually SHOOTING at the police is a different matter, but as noted, it has not been \*proved \*that the man Duggan was doing any such thing. I should clarify what I meant. I’m obviously not saying that summary execution is fair for carrying a gun. The first factor is that carrying a loaded handgun is a _very_ serious crime here – I think it can get you up to 5 years IIRC. So, the chance of someone just carrying a gun for self-defence is pretty unlikely. He wasn’t on his way to buy baby formula. Secondly there’s all kinds of scenarios given that he had a gun – he pointed it at the police, at other people etc. Given the rarity of officers shooting anyone in this country\* I think it’s likely that something like this happened. But of course, few details have been released yet. - Obviously the cockup with the brazilian electrician stands out but that was an extraordinary event and a very different situation. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/29 "2011-08-10T00:34:15Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > They are rioting because the police is not taking the required forceful steps to put the riot down and because on account of too restrictive gun laws, and self defence laws, people are unable to protect themselves. Making rioting fun and profitable without much chance of anything too bad happening. Shoot a few rioters would put a stop to it presently. If not do it again. It would also mean that those rioters would be equally armed, however. I’m not particularly confident that people who would be prepared to loot and firebomb would be averse to violently using a gun, either. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/30 "2011-08-10T00:40:24Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Shoot a few rioters would put a stop to it presently. If not do it again. Sounds like a good way to escalate a short term riot into a long term insurrection/terrorism problem. Especially since these are people who are quite likely to _not believe_ the cops when they say they shot people for rioting. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/31 "2011-08-10T01:08:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Sounds like a good way to escalate a short term riot into a long term insurrection/terrorism problem. Especially since these are people who are quite likely to _not believe_ the cops when they say they shot people for rioting. One difference - perhaps still not a big enough one - is that the rioters are out there doing bad things in public. It would be technically feasible to capture their activity and summary execution on a single continuous piece of video footage, . As I say, not really sure that’s enough to make it a good idea, but “can’t we shoot these idiots?” does seem to be crossing the mind of many a frustrated observer at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/32 "2011-08-10T01:32:14Z")
It began as revenge for the shooting of black drug dealer Mark Duggan. From [sonsofmalcolm blog](http://sonsofmalcolm.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-08-07T18%3A07%3A00%2B01%3A00&max-results=7): > [@](#): > > BROTHERS TAKE REVENGE ON pIGS IN NORTH LONDON - AFTER PIGS SHOOT DEAD A YOUNG BROTHER ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/33 "2011-08-10T01:35:21Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > As I say, not really sure that’s enough to make it a good idea, but “can’t we shoot these idiots?” does seem to be crossing the mind of many a frustrated observer at the moment. Paintball guns on full auto, balls loaded with water gel containing silver nitrate (stains skin for weeks) and a trace of butyl mercaptan (stinks worse than a skunk, tough to wash off). That’s the mildest suggestion I have at the moment. The notion of an array of public portaloos in Trafalgar square, with arrested rioters pilloried below them for two days, isn’t even the nastiest. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/34 "2011-08-10T01:41:19Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It began as revenge for the shooting of black drug dealer Mark Duggan. From [sonsofmalcolm blog](http://sonsofmalcolm.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-08-07T18%3A07%3A00%2B01%3A00&max-results=7): Did you have to include the “black” part? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/35 "2011-08-10T01:47:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [One death so far; PM calls special session of Parliament.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/08/201189141323759165.html) Why are they doing this? What do the rioters **want?** Are they just frustrated at being poor? Did the riots on the Continent give them ideas? Are they trying to accomplish something? Or is it all just an excuse to loot? This is racial violence. It’s blacks attacking white people and looting and burning white property, just like the racial assaults on whites at the Wisconsin state fair, the flash mobs of young blacks in various cities who gather to attack whites, Hispanics and Asians, the gang assault on two whites and a Hispanic on a Marta train in Atlanta, the gangbangers who forced the police to close the Chicago beach on Memorial Day, and a lot of other incidents. Is there no one of you on this board who has the backbone to acknowledge this fact and say it aloud in public? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/36 "2011-08-10T01:48:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Did you have to include the “black” part? If you want to be truthful, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/37 "2011-08-10T01:58:56Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well American police have shot and killed people if they though say someone was reaching for a gun (or something like a gun). Yes. And some of them have been charged with homicide for doing so and have even gone to jail for it. There is a penalty for the police screwing up when the system works properly. When people don’t trust it work properly you can get riots. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/38 "2011-08-10T02:02:58Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Did you have to include the “black” part? Why not? Was he not a black man? Should we pretend race doesn’t exist so we don’t have to wonder whether or not it might be a factor here? Are you saying race relations in the UK are so perfect that there is zero chance that could be a factor? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/39 "2011-08-10T02:06:00Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > This is racial violence. It’s blacks attacking white people and looting and burning white property, just like the racial assaults on whites at the Wisconsin state fair, the flash mobs of young blacks in various cities who gather to attack whites, Hispanics and Asians, the gang assault on two whites and a Hispanic on a Marta train in Atlanta, the gangbangers who forced the police to close the Chicago beach on Memorial Day, and a lot of other incidents. Is there no one of you on this board who has the backbone to acknowledge this fact and say it aloud in public? While there is no doubt that the US mob violence you mentioned has a definite racial component with black culprits and white victims, it is not so clear cut in the UK. The crowds there seem more integrated, with victims likewise of various ethnicities. Racial issues in the UK are not the same as in the US, even though there are some similarities on a few points. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/40 "2011-08-10T02:33:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Did you have to include the “black” part? Only because that is relevant to the motivation here. I understand the police involved were from Operation Trident which is a unit set up to deal with gun crime in the black community. And the rioters have predominantly been from that [community](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/) (or were initially). > [@](#): > > Everyone from all sides of London meet up at the heart of London (central) OXFORD CIRCUS!!, Bare SHOPS are gonna get smashed up so come get some (free stuff!!!) fuck the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! \>:O > Dead the ends and colour war for now so > if you see a brother… SALUT! > if you see a fed… SHOOT!.. > > its a free world so have fun running wild shopping;) > Oxford Circus 9pm if u see a fed stopping a brother JUMP IN!!! EVERYONE JUMP IN n1ggers will be lurking about, all blacked out we strike at 9:15pm-9:30pm, make sure ur there see you there. REMEMBA DA LOCATION!!! OXFORD CIRCUS!!! > **[London riots aftermath - Monday 8 August 2011](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-tottenham-duggan-blog)** > > Rioting and looting spreads across north London following the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan in Tottenham [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=3)