# Why are they rioting in London? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096 "2011-08-09T16:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/61 "2011-08-10T12:21:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s only “fun” if you get away with it. Agree with Broomstick, its way to early to say that there is “no repercussions” for the looters. For those who have never been to London, there are CCTV’s absolutely everywhere. I’d expect a high percentage of those involved to be tracked down. Of course this just means next time, they will cover their faces before looting… ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/62 "2011-08-10T12:28:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So, you’re saying they approve of extra-judicial summary execution? I find that a little difficult to believe is a majority viewpoint. > > First of all, it has been determined that he did, indisputably, have a gun. > > Second, the riots would seem to indicate that not all people were accepting of the idea he “needed to be shot”. > > So what you’re saying is the UK is a police state where trials are no longer needed? I thought the UK had abolished the death penalty, but you’re saying it’s somehow OK for police to shoot people dead without a trial? > > It has already been determined that the gun was illegal. > > Being strongly anti-gun does not automatically mean pro-summary execution in the streets. > > You know, I’d find your claim somewhat more credible if you were up to date on the facts involved, such as the official inquiry determining he definitely had an illegal gun in his possession. Britain is not a police state and extra-judicial killings are not acceptable. Perhaps you would like to re-read my post in that context. What can I have meant, if not the absurd conclusions you inferred? British public opinion can be sampled imperfectly but in volume from the comments pages of any British news web site. But bear in mind the difficulty you had interpreting my comments - people might not be saying what you think they are. I disagree with your conclusion that the rioters are protesting Mr Duggan’s death. Personally, I have not formed a view on Mr Duggan’s guilt or innocence of any crime, notwithstanding police reports that he was armed. Have you got a cite for an ‘official inquiry’ concluding that he definitely had an illegal gun in his possession? I don’t think anyone but you thinks that is settled fact yet, though I’d accept that the police want you to think that. Perhaps you are assuming that anything reported by the media as coming from a police spokesman is a definitive fact? I’d find your claims more credible if you dialed down the hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/63 "2011-08-10T12:34:44Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Have you got a cite for an ‘official inquiry’ concluding that he definitely had an illegal gun in his possession? I don’t think anyone but you thinks that is settled fact yet, though I’d accept that the police want you to think that. Perhaps you are assuming that anything reported by the media as coming from a police spokesman is a definitive fact? It’s been mentioned several times already: the [IPCC update](http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/Pages/pr_090811_dugganupdate.aspx), which is not a “police spokesman” but a separate investigative body, say they recovered a loaded, illegal handgun. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/64 "2011-08-10T13:28:59Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > I am curious as to why it crops up when it does. Though it is almost always in the summer; we don’t want the rioters to feel chilly. Hot weather always increases the incidence of riots. Certainly before the days of air conditioning, people didn’t sleep well in the heat and their tempers got shorter. These days people might have air conditioning, but they’re still affected by the heat. > [@coremelt](#): > > Agree with Broomstick, its way to early to say that there is “no repercussions” for the looters. For those who have never been to London, there are CCTV’s absolutely everywhere. I’d expect a high percentage of those involved to be tracked down. > > Of course this just means next time, they will cover their faces before looting… Some of them already are doing just that. > [@Sandwich](#): > > I disagree with your conclusion that the rioters are protesting Mr Duggan’s death. Not past the first night, no - riots aren’t static, they evolve. What started as a protest against Duggan’s death turned into an acquisitional free-for-all by people who don’t give a rat’s arse about Mr. Duggan. > [@](#): > > Personally, I have not formed a view on Mr Duggan’s guilt or innocence of any crime, notwithstanding police reports that he was armed. Have you got a cite for an ‘official inquiry’ concluding that he definitely had an illegal gun in his possession? I don’t think anyone but you thinks that is settled fact yet, though I’d accept that the police want you to think that. Perhaps you are assuming that anything reported by the media as coming from a police spokesman is a definitive fact? The IPCC update has already been mentioned and linked to several times in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/65 "2011-08-10T13:34:30Z")
IIRC, the last time anything like this happened in the UK was [in 1981.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_England_riots) Are these riots any different from those riots? ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/66 "2011-08-10T13:37:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Hot weather always increases the incidence of riots. Certainly before the days of air conditioning, people didn’t sleep well in the heat and their tempers got shorter. These days people might have air conditioning, but they’re still affected by the heat… I think your idea of British summer heat is rather different to mine. The average night temperature has been about 12 degrees. Pleasant, but not ire-inspiring. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/67 "2011-08-10T13:37:42Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > See, I don’t think it has much to do with politics. It started out as a protest of a police shooting, and then hoodlums and criminals realized it was perfect cover to start mayhem. Now folks are stealing and burning shit because they think they can get away with it. :mad: Boy, if that ever happens **here**. . . I’ve got my eye on this awesome flatscreen at Best Buy . . . ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/68 "2011-08-10T13:43:15Z")
Are mobile phones so cheap in the UK that disaffected youths, who don’t have a pot to piss in, can afford Blackberrys? I find that really strange. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/69 "2011-08-10T13:48:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > IIRC, the last time anything like this happened in the UK was [in 1981.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_England_riots) Are these riots any different from those riots? There were race riots in Birmingham in 2005 over the alleged rape of a black girl, but those were more focused. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/70 "2011-08-10T13:51:06Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Are mobile phones so cheap in the UK that disaffected youths, who don’t have a pot to piss in, can afford Blackberrys? I find that really strange. I suspect that many are stolen. They certainly were during the looting. ETA: Generalising, they are from about £100-£200, and on contract from about £25 pm. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/71 "2011-08-10T13:57:39Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Are mobile phones so cheap in the UK that disaffected youths, who don’t have a pot to piss in, can afford Blackberrys? I find that really strange. They aren’t cheap (though their price has gone into freefall now there’s lots of smartphone competition), but poor people often have a few trinkets of wealth. It’s a similar phenomenon to how they will often have things like gold chains. In a poor community such trinkets are coveted. In a wealthy community, they are often considered vulgar. But also (and I know I’m mentioning this a lot) but there are gangs in these riots and gang members can normally afford such stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/72 "2011-08-10T14:11:21Z")
Does mobile phone service cost less than land line service in the UK now? I remember being astonished at how cheap land line service was when I moved to the US relative to the UK. I imagine not much has changed in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/73 "2011-08-10T14:29:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Does mobile phone service cost less than land line service in the UK now? I remember being astonished at how cheap land line service was when I moved to the US relative to the UK. I imagine not much has changed in that regard. My landline service, that I only have because I need it for broadband, costs 27 quid a month. That includes the broadband, which is fast enough for my needs, and seems to be unlimited. I guess running a Blackberry could be done on a tenner or maybe fifteen a month, on a sim-only contract. If you usually just use BBM, then that would be enough for most folk. Edit: My mobile contract is 25 a month, with “unlimited” data, and more calls and texts than I could ever use. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/74 "2011-08-10T14:57:25Z")
You need a landline for _broadband?_ ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/75 "2011-08-10T15:05:32Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Are mobile phones so cheap in the UK that disaffected youths, who don’t have a pot to piss in, can afford Blackberrys? I find that really strange. I’ve been in several threads where posters were astonished that poor people could afford mobile phones. But they aren’t that expensive. They just aren’t. Especially if you aren’t paying for a landline on top of that. It’s 2011, not 1998. Can we please stop pretending that mobile phones are expensive luxuries that only middle class people can afford? ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/76 "2011-08-10T15:15:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You need a landline for _broadband?_ Broadband is available through: your landline to which you connect a modem/router, to which you connect to your pc with either a cable or wifi your mobile carrier to your mobile phone satellite to your satellite dish ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/77 "2011-08-10T15:59:36Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well plastic bullets have never been used on the UK mainland. > (water cannon obviously has) I meant they’ve previously set up a rapid response force, rather than specifically used rubber bullets, or baton rounds, or water cannons. Riots seem to have slowed down a bit now, although having spread to Leicester and some other places. It’s been raining, that’s not rioting weather. The police in Manchester have apparently said they are “coming to get” the rioters because they know who they are. That’s what you get for changing your Facebook status to “rioting”. ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/78 "2011-08-10T16:05:27Z")
I’ve heard rumours that someone’s been distributing leaflets on “how to get away with rioting”. Does anyone know if there’s anything to them? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/79 "2011-08-10T16:08:35Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > It would also mean that those rioters would be equally armed, however. I’m not particularly confident that people who would be prepared to loot and firebomb would be averse to violently using a gun, either. There are armed police aplenty. What Americans are missing is that the British policing philosophy is ‘policing by the consent of the community’. Force is therefore the last resort. Rubber bullets have not been used on the British mainland. And the UK public is not ‘unarmed’. We have baseball bats and knives and now that we are alerted, numbers on our sides. The looters are not routinely gunned up either and without strict gun laws a whole lot more people would be dead on all sides. Part of the problem is that in the poorer housing estates an imitation of American gang culture has grown up and therefore a significant number of young men and women do see the ‘Feds’ as the enemy. What is worrying/interesting is the way that secure Blackberry messaging gives a couple of hundred people the mobility to evade the police and basically loot at will without fear of getting caught. We can’t keep tens of thousands of police on the streets of every major city and I cannot see what can stop these groups from doing this practically at will now the genie is out the bottle. Speaking as a liberal socialist type - I wouldn’t blink if these people were executed on the spot. They are useless criminal vermin that make the lives of the majority in their communities a misery. Failing that it is important that the criminal justice system hits everyone caught with every creative charge they can. Hit them with conspiracy charges on top of everything and make sentences run consecutively. Let’s see what sentencing a couple of hundred to 25 years without remission or hope of parole does to these scum’s desire for a free pair of trainers. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/80 "2011-08-10T16:27:55Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > I think your idea of British summer heat is rather different to mine. The average night temperature has been about 12 degrees. Pleasant, but not ire-inspiring. Heat is relative. When I’m acclimated to winter temperatures I may perceive 12 C as sweltering and sweat copiously. This time of year, 12 C might feel chilly to me. Nor is it just about the night temperature - high day time temperatures, especially combined with humidity, puts people under stress that builds up over time, hence why deaths in heat waves don’t show up until 3 or 4 days into one at earliest. But, you know UK temps better than I do, if you say they’re not warm enough to be a factor I’ll believe you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=5)