# Why are they rioting in London? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096 "2011-08-09T16:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/81 "2011-08-10T16:30:27Z")
12 deg. C is 53.6 deg. F. Unless you are posting from a chest freezer, I find it hard to believe you would perceive that as “sweltering”. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/82 "2011-08-10T16:30:46Z")
> [@Bisected8](#): > > I’ve heard rumours that someone’s been distributing leaflets on “how to get away with rioting”. Does anyone know if there’s anything to them? That information has been out on the internet for years - it would be trivial for someone to download and print them out. Especially if they’re looking a print/copy shop and don’t have to pay for toner and paper. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/83 "2011-08-10T16:38:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 12 deg. C is 53.6 deg. F. Unless you are posting from a chest freezer, I find it hard to believe you would perceive that as “sweltering”. It can get down to -30 F here in winter. After I get used to going out into that, yes 53 F is hot if I’m working outside. Granted, the “chest freezer” is only in operation around here about 3-4 months of the year. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/84 "2011-08-10T16:41:41Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > What is worrying/interesting is the way that secure Blackberry messaging gives a couple of hundred people the mobility to evade the police and basically loot at will without fear of getting caught. The authorities over there claim the CCTV’s all around plus looking into the records for all those blackberry and twitter accounts will lead to arrests… so maybe they will get caught, just not immediately? > [@](#): > > Speaking as a liberal socialist type - I wouldn’t blink if these people were executed on the spot. They are useless criminal vermin that make the lives of the majority in their communities a misery. No, they’re not vermin, they’re human beings. Granted, they are human beings doing bad things, but no, you do not want to give the police the power to be judge, jury, and executioner on the spot. History tells us that can also lead to great misery. > [@](#): > > Failing that it is important that the criminal justice system hits everyone caught with every creative charge they can. Hit them with conspiracy charges on top of everything and make sentences run consecutively. Let’s see what sentencing a couple of hundred to 25 years without remission or hope of parole does to these scum’s desire for a free pair of trainers. I could get behind that as a solution. Here’s hoping that if they try it, it works. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/85 "2011-08-10T17:00:38Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It can get down to -30 F here in winter. After I get used to going out into that, yes 53 F is hot if I’m working outside. Granted, the “chest freezer” is only in operation around here about 3-4 months of the year. You may take it from me that it doesn’t get down to -30F in the UK in _any_ season, and the rioters are correspondingly unlikely to be sweltering. One presumes that the immigrant element (if any) is even less likely to be disturbed by the heat. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/86 "2011-08-10T17:03:14Z")
An article on some possible causes: [http://theweek.com/article/index/218125/what-caused-the-london-riots-5-theories](http://theweek.com/article/index/218125/what-caused-the-london-riots-5-theories) > [@](#): > > 1. A weak police response > This outbreak of “mass criminality” was “unleashed by an insufficiently tough police reaction to the initial incident,” says Andrew Sullivan at The Daily Beast. Because the cops didn’t crack down right away, it essentially “gave permission for dozens of sheer thugs to come and loot and burn the neighborhood.” When a mob sees that police can’t control a situation, it “leads to a sort of adrenalin-fueled euphoria,” agrees criminologist John Pitts, as quoted by Britain’s Guardian. > [@](#): > > 1. Rank opportunism > This isn’t a political uprising by the downtrodden poor, it’s an outbreak of “nihilistic behavior” by “a mollycoddled mob” of social ingrates robbing their own community, says Brendan O’Neill at Spiked. In fact, what has set these riots apart from earlier ones is the deliberate, eerily consumer-like looting. And that has greatly upped the damages, says sociologist Paul Bagguley. Whereas all riots loosen inhibitions, “looting tends to involve a wider range of people — children, women, older people — because it does not involve physical violence.” And as more people get involved, more damage is done. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/87 "2011-08-10T17:44:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [One death so far; PM calls special session of Parliament.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/08/201189141323759165.html) Why are they doing this? What do the rioters **want?** Are they just frustrated at being poor? Did the riots on the Continent give them ideas? Are they trying to accomplish something? Or is it all just an excuse to loot? They’re rioting to steal free stuff mainly. They do this every so often. IKEA had a huge sale a few years ago at a store opening near the scene of the outbreak of the riot and they were stabbing each other over a cheap sofa. massive riot, police attacked etc. Basically there are some no-go areas for police in London and the criminals make everybody’s life a misery. Stronger policing, law and order etc,. needed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/88 "2011-08-10T17:55:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > 12 deg. C is 53.6 deg. F. Unless you are posting from a chest freezer, I find it hard to believe you would perceive that as “sweltering”. It’s not the chill, it’s the chumidity. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/89 "2011-08-10T20:49:46Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*4. Rank opportunism > > This isn’t a political uprising by the downtrodden poor, it’s an outbreak of “nihilistic behavior” by “a mollycoddled mob” of social ingrates robbing their own community, says Brendan O’Neill at Spiked. In fact, what has set these riots apart from earlier ones is the deliberate, eerily consumer-like looting. And that has greatly upped the damages, says sociologist Paul Bagguley. Whereas all riots loosen inhibitions, “looting tends to involve a wider range of people — children, women, older people — because it does not involve physical violence.” And as more people get involved, more damage is done. \*\* I’ve heard this argument several times and it strikes me as bizarre. Why does the fact that they are looting undercut the claim that part of the trigger for the riots is anger and despair over a lifelong prospect of poverty? That seems like claiming that if a riot is full of white and black people beating on each other it disproves that it’s a race riot. And calling the poor things like “coddled” and “ungrateful” is such a classic bit of right wing demonization of the poor that it makes the argument difficult to take seriously on its own. It’s a way of preemptively denying that there might possibly be some good reason for the poor to be angry. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/90 "2011-08-10T21:14:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And calling the poor things like “coddled” and “ungrateful” is such a classic bit of right wing demonization of the poor that it makes the argument difficult to take seriously on its own. It’s a way of preemptively denying that there might possibly be some good reason for the poor to be angry. Yeah, those right-wingers: > [@tagos](#): > > Speaking as a liberal socialist type - I wouldn’t blink if these people were executed on the spot. They are useless criminal vermin that make the lives of the majority in their communities a misery. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/91 "2011-08-10T21:30:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, those right-wingers: That’s right wing rhetoric, regardless of what he calls himself. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/92 "2011-08-10T21:40:34Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I’ve been in several threads where posters were astonished that poor people could afford mobile phones. But they aren’t that expensive. They just aren’t. Especially if you aren’t paying for a landline on top of that. > > It’s 2011, not 1998. Can we please stop pretending that mobile phones are expensive luxuries that only middle class people can afford? Are you saying you can get a new Blackberry with data plan for under $100/month? I could afford that, but to my mind, if I’m an unemployed youth or making \<$20K, that’s a luxury, and I’d get a basic shit phone with no data service. Blackberry indeed. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/93 "2011-08-10T21:49:06Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Are you saying you can get a new Blackberry with data plan for under $100/month? > I could afford that, but to my mind, if I’m an unemployed youth or making \<$20K, that’s a luxury, and I’d get a basic shit phone with no data service. Blackberry indeed. There are pay as you go Blackberries so yes. You could spend $20/month on it if it’s all you could afford. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/94 "2011-08-10T21:51:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You may take it from me that it doesn’t get down to -30F in the UK in _any_ season, and the rioters are correspondingly unlikely to be sweltering. . And if they are, they can just steal a chest freezer! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/95 "2011-08-10T22:03:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s right wing rhetoric, regardless of what he calls himself. I normally have time for Brendan O’Neill, and I would say the summariser in the quote provided by **Qin Shi Huangdi** is not being entirely fair to his argument, which can be found in full [here](http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10970/). He doesn’t use the word “ingrates” or anything like it, and while he does refer to them as “mollycoddled”, it’s not the standard Daily Mail rightwinger use of the term. Basically, I would say his view is that increasing government intrusion into the lives of the poor (based on the assumption that they are incapable of looking after themselves) has resulted in groups of people with no real sense of belonging to a community. I guess that’s a point for debate, but he’s certainly not describing the rioters as a bunch of lazy welfare addicts who should take what they’re given and like it. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/96 "2011-08-10T22:09:48Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Are you saying you can get a new Blackberry with data plan for under $100/month? > I could afford that, but to my mind, if I’m an unemployed youth or making \<$20K, that’s a luxury, and I’d get a basic shit phone with no data service. Blackberry indeed. I work for a UK cellphone network. I don’t do sales, but [here’s](http://shop.o2.co.uk/mobile_phone/pay_monthly/init/BlackBerry/Curve_8520_Purple) the cheapest I could find, and other operators are probably cheaper. £16.50 per month is about US$27. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/97 "2011-08-10T22:22:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > While there is no doubt that the US mob violence you mentioned has a definite racial component with black culprits and white victims, it is not so clear cut in the UK. The crowds there seem more integrated, with victims likewise of various ethnicities. Racial issues in the UK are not the same as in the US, even though there are some similarities on a few points. Thank you. This post lead me to look for photos of the rioters on Google Images. After looking at several dozen, I withdraw my remarks about the UK riots. The others still stand. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/98 "2011-08-10T22:29:54Z")
I think the biggest problem with this was, simply, that they weren’t expected. Which does seem reasonable - I can only speak personally as a Brit, but if you told me last week we’d have riots like this the week after i’d call you a muppet. Now that the police are actually getting into it, hopefully, things will calm down after a while. What’s worrying me now (or perhaps, what’s worrying me in addition to) is potential vigilantism, and perhaps arising from that, the ability for extreme groups to take advantage of the situation. There was just a bit on TV a moment ago with a bloke from the EDL speaking about how they were down and around attempting to control and help out those people who were taking it upon themselves to patrol. And the rhetoric that’s being used by such patrolling groups is disturbingly similar to the type of speech commonly used by such groups. It’s not entirely fair - by and large, it’s simply because such groups do try and co-opt that kind of loud patriotism - but i’m worried about the long term ability for some groups to, well, boost their membership out of this. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/99 "2011-08-10T22:33:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Why does the fact that they are looting undercut the claim that part of the trigger for the riots is anger and despair over a lifelong prospect of poverty? The point is, even compared to other riots this has been very much about opportunism. There has been muggings and beatings of ordinary people as well as all the looting. It’s completely about “no-one can do anything, so why not?”. We need to stop making excuses for such people. I guess I’m weird for having grown up in extreme poverty and not wanting to steal, commit arson or beat people up. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/100 "2011-08-10T22:45:17Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I think the biggest problem with this was, simply, that they weren’t expected. Which does seem reasonable - I can only speak personally as a Brit, but if you told me last week we’d have riots like this the week after i’d call you a muppet. Expecting it to happen _now_ would have taken a crystal ball. But certainly I expected that at some point in the near future there was going to be another wave of riots worse than the ones that have gone before. The same guys who rioted supposedly over tuition fees and the financial crisis, as well as other yobs like the EDL, have got a taste for rioting now, and figure the police can do nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=6)