# Why are they rioting in London? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096 "2011-08-09T16:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/121 "2011-08-11T10:48:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well the point of my last post was attempting to say that in not clamping down on certain behaviours we encourage them to not only continue, but get worse. People see they can get away with x, so they try y. “Flexing their muscles”, so to speak. > This kind of thing has gone on for so long that a generation has grown up and I’m sure there are parents that will be telling their children things like “…so then I told the teacher to fuck off and she couldn’t say anything”. > > But I do want to make a point about genetics. One of the philosophies that seems to have slipped into the public consciousness is the idea that people are inherently good and it is only particular circumstances that act to make them behave badly e.g. being abused, not having a father figure around. > I don’t subscribe to this. > > I think there are a distribution of personalities and some people are inclined to be aggressive or spiteful or whatever. And if we don’t deal with this reality, then other people with less of an inclination will start to behave the same way, because the perception will be that such behaviours are effective. But I don’t know why other countries don’t suffer from this. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/122 "2011-08-11T10:49:04Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yeah, but now you have the unusual situation of the poor underclass expanding while the middle class tend to have fewer children. Not a good idea for maintaining a modern economy. Because the rich are getting richer and everyone else as a consequence is getting poorer. Not because of your racial & Social Darwinist fantasies. > [@Mijin](#): > > How did we solve it? > Did we ask what were the causes in society of such behaviour? What we should be doing in our communities? > > No, we recognized it for what it was: a bunch of people acting like idiots, and we got tough with them. That’s not even logically coherent. If you didn’t even ask yourself what the causes are, then you _don’t know_ why the behavior got better, or the cause of it in the first place. By definition. You can’t reasonably claim that people are “just a bunch of idiots” while at the same time saying that you not only don’t know but you aren’t even trying to find out why they are doing anything. There’s a definite “Ignorance is Strength” vibe here…kind of ironic on this website. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/123 "2011-08-11T10:50:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But I do want to make a point about genetics. One of the philosophies that seems to have slipped into the public consciousness is the idea that people are inherently good and it is only particular circumstances that act to make them behave badly e.g. being abused, not having a father figure around. > I don’t subscribe to this. So you think people are just born ‘bad’? Do you think this distribution is equal across the races, classes, genders, etc, or is it bred? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/124 "2011-08-11T10:56:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well the point of my last post was attempting to say that in not clamping down on certain behaviours we encourage them to not only continue, but get worse. And the answer is to let the beatings continue until [del]morale[/del] attitude improves ? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/125 "2011-08-11T11:27:22Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yeah, but now you have the unusual situation of the poor underclass expanding while the middle class tend to have fewer children. Not a good idea for maintaining a modern economy. Oh, please - there have been complaints about the poor outbreeding the rich since the days of the Roman Empire. So far, the rich haven’t gone extinct and the poor haven’t taken over. It’s not “unusual”, it’s actually fairly typical in history. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/126 "2011-08-11T11:30:07Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > But I don’t know why other countries don’t suffer from this. Because their methods for dealing with initial, smaller scale bad behaviour are different to ours. That’s my central point. Obviously there are other factors, like our culture on binge drinking, but the thing is, if you mention something like that it becomes the scapegoat for bad behaviour. People change licensing laws in an area and are surprised when crime doesn’t come down. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > If you didn’t even ask yourself what the causes are, then you don’t know why the behavior got better, or the cause of it in the first place. Think what you’re saying here. That we cannot respond to a phenomenon without knowing its causes? Or indeed, we can’t even say whether a given response is even useful? Seriously, do I have to give an analogy to show you why this is nonsense? In any case, I think I can identify causes, which I’ve gone into in other posts. > [@SecondJudith](#): > > So you think people are just born ‘bad’? Well, sort of…I wouldn’t put it like that. We all have some propensity to doing bad things some of the time. And I think it’s innate. If you watch very young children play you’ll see clear-cut acts of spite. And I saying there’s variation in this, like most things, so some people are inclined to do more extreme things, more of the time. Inclination is not the same thing as behaviour though. I’m not saying anyone is “lost”. > [@](#): > > Do you think this distribution is equal across the races, classes, genders, etc, or is it bred? For race and all that…let’s not go there. There’s no reason to bring this into the discussion. As for “bred”, yes, if you mean bred by natural selection. > [@Kobal2](#): > > And the answer is to let the beatings continue until attitude improves ? I’ve no idea what you’re talking about. What beatings? To whom? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/127 "2011-08-11T11:35:06Z")
There was a [riot in Copenhagen in 1993](http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/18._maj-urolighederne) ([youtube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E7PHw07Mg4)) by ultraleftist nationalists. The police shot (100+ shots were fired) them down. The riot wasn’t repeated. Plenty of peaceful demonstrations of course. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/128 "2011-08-11T11:48:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And the answer is to let the beatings continue until [del]morale[/del] attitude improves ? This is not a political movement. It is a band of opportunistic thugs. These arsonists and looters can and should be suppressed just as you would a spate of armed robberies. Cracking down on robbers isn’t going to attract others to their cause, because they don’t have one. All it will do is tip their cost/benefit analysis away from committing more robberies. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/129 "2011-08-11T12:00:20Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Because their methods for dealing with initial, smaller scale bad behaviour are different to ours. That’s my central point. So it is to some degree affected by environment? > [@Mijin](#): > > For race and all that…let’s not go there. There’s no reason to bring this into the discussion. > As for “bred”, yes, if you mean bred by natural selection. I don’t see why not. If it’s related to genetics and breeding there must be some correlation with race and ethnicity, according to your theory. What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/130 "2011-08-11T12:04:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Because their methods for dealing with initial, smaller scale bad behaviour are different to ours. That’s my central point. Then you may need to change the rules on how your police respond to small mobs. My understanding is that in the UK police tend to hold back when it’s a property crime and then track the culprit down later - perhaps they should be more active in apprehending someone in the act of committing such a crime. Perhaps they should re-evaluate how they handle unruly crowds. Maybe something else needs adjusting, it’s hard to say since I’m not overly familiar with life in the UK. > [@](#): > > Obviously there are other factors, like our culture on binge drinking, but the thing is, if you mention something like that it becomes the scapegoat for bad behaviour. People change licensing laws in an area and are surprised when crime doesn’t come down. Well, obviously, in that case drinking was not a cause of the crimes that didn’t go away. Drink might contribute, or it might be involved in a subset of crime, but if you change the alcohol laws and crime remains the same then alcohol isn’t the root of the problem. But yes, we get the same phenomena here. > [@](#): > > Think what you’re saying here. That we cannot respond to a phenomenon without knowing its causes? Or indeed, we can’t even say whether a given response is even useful? Seriously, do I have to give an analogy to show you why this is nonsense? Well, _of course_ you have to do something immediately to quell riots on this scale. You have to stop them. Once it’s over, though, you have two choices: go back to things as they were, and deal with the _next_ riot down the road; or try to find out the _root causes_ of why this happened - which the participants themselves might not even be aware of! There have been lot of urban riots over the years. You know what? They tend to have a few things in common: - discrimination (racial, class, religious - doesn’t matter, and can be a mix) - poverty (lack of money) - high unemployment (lack of jobs) - lack of good educational opportunities - lack of adequate healthcare access - lack of adequate housing - police brutality (real and/or perceived) So take a look at that list and ask yourself: how many of these exist in Britain right now? Doesn’t have to be all of them, but every one of them you find increases your chance of a riot. > [@](#): > > I’ve no idea what you’re talking about. What beatings? To whom? It’s an old joke: “The beatings will continue until morale improves” - people are unhappy about something, so we will inflict more unhappy on them until they become happy. Another way of saying that if something doesn’t work doing more of it is unlikely to result in a different outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/131 "2011-08-11T12:09:44Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > This is not a political movement. It is a band of opportunistic thugs. Well, you can’t ignore social injustice. These things [don’t just happen in a vacuum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=619240&highlight=wisconsin+state+fair), you know. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/132 "2011-08-11T12:47:05Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > So it is to some degree affected by environment? Of course. > [@](#): > > If it’s related to genetics and breeding there must be some correlation with race and ethnicity, according to your theory. What’s the difference? Firstly, why do you insist on calling it “breeding”? I’m talking about our natural tendancies which have come about through our evolutionary history. Secondly, it’s not my theory: It’s been well established that we have some propensity towards bad behaviour and there is variation in to what degree. What part of this do you dispute? Finally, yeah probably there would be some variation between population groups. This is very different from saying black=good, white=bad and I think it’s quite poor form to try to lead the discussion that way. > [@Broomstick](#): > > - discrimination (racial, class, religious - doesn’t matter, and can be a mix) > - poverty (lack of money) > - high unemployment (lack of jobs) > - lack of good educational opportunities > - lack of adequate healthcare access > - lack of adequate housing > - police brutality (real and/or perceived) Fine, but don’t forget: - opportunism What I’m saying is that this reason may be one of the most critical in the kind of riots which are taking place in britain. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/133 "2011-08-11T13:16:10Z")
Well, yes, there is a certain sort of person who, seeing what they perceive to be an opportunity to get something for nothing without getting caught will take advantage. The fact that the UK actually is using CCTV footage and other means to track down those who rioted, burned, and looted may make people think twice next time, as getting away with it is apparently not as easy as it appeared. But tens of thousands of other people _did not_ become opportunists. Why is that? What’s the difference between those who take and those who restrain themselves? Who is more likely to loot, those who can afford to pay for the stuff in the shop window, or those who will never be able to afford those items? It’s not that rich young idiots _never_ smash windows, set fires, or steal, but they seem far less likely to do so. Nor is it poverty alone that drives the looting, as there were plenty of London poor who _didn’t_ take part in all the rioting, theft, and arson. The causes aren’t direct - you can’t point to someone and say “oh, he’s X, he’ll do Y” because people don’t work like that. On the other hand, it’s also pretty clear that if certain types of social conditions are common, then certain other conditions - like riots - are much more likely to occur. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/134 "2011-08-11T13:32:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > …Fine, but don’t forget: > > - opportunism > > What I’m saying is that this reason may be one of the most critical in the kind of riots which are taking place in britain. If today’s news reports are at all representative of the facts (and I acknowledge this isn’t always the case), then you could be right. People arrested and charged who aren’t jobless, homeless or particularly poor or disgruntled ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/135 "2011-08-11T13:36:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Who is more likely to loot, those who can afford to pay for the stuff in the shop window, or those who will never be able to afford those items? I’m not sure the answer to that is at all straightforward or obvious - and it may be the opposite of what you expect. Poverty has a reputation for inspiring a kind of earthy honesty, and people who can (or have preiviously been able to) afford stuff might generally expect to have stuff they want. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/136 "2011-08-11T13:37:59Z")
In which case Britain will have to ask why that cross-section of people thought “smash and loot” was somehow acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/137 "2011-08-11T14:01:32Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m not sure the answer to that is at all straightforward or obvious - and it may be the opposite of what you expect. Poverty has a reputation for inspiring a kind of earthy honesty, and people who can (or have preiviously been able to) afford stuff might generally expect to have stuff they want. Quite. It’s interesting that so much of the discussion has been about poverty, with no obvious evidence of a correlation. Sure, they’re unlikely to be the richest in society but I’d like to see evidence they’re the poorest. The logic appears to be “They’re taking stuff…so they must be poor, right?”. Whereas on the other hand, the fact they’re firebombing people’s homes (in some cases while people were still in them), and other acts which are despicable even through the lens of other riots…from this we’re not supposed to infer anything. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/138 "2011-08-11T14:12:47Z")
Well, go ahead and infer. I think part of the reason discussion has focused on looting is because that’s most of what was going on, the arson, although alarming, was not the dominant activity. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/139 "2011-08-11T14:19:18Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > This whole thing about rich and poor is a complete red herring. > > For the benefit of anyone here who is not from the UK (and a reminder to those that are), here’s some background on this: > > Britain has a problem with yobbish behaviour. For a long time football hooliganism was out of control. Nowadays it’s things like assaults, muggings and stabbings, for which we’re one of those most dangerous of developed countries. > It’s very common on our high streets to see groups of youths 15-18 years old threatening people, spitting at them etc because they feel invincible: they have much of the physical strength of an adult, but no care of the consequences. They don’t think anyone can do anything. > > And now this new flavour of rioting. Which is ostensibly about duggan, tuition fees or whatever but is really an excuse for such youths to smash up the place and steal stuff. > The softly softly approach has been tried. A lot. Instead of the soul searching let’s nip the behaviour in the bud. > > Note that I had to say we _were_ a country with a football hooliganism problem. It’s not gone away, but things are _much_ better than the hooliganism heyday of the 70s. > > How did we solve it? > Did we ask what were the causes in society of such behaviour? What we should be doing in our communities? > > No, we recognized it for what it was: a bunch of people acting like idiots, and we got tough with them. > > Obviously getting tough on criminal behaviour is no panacea. The point is, britain has its own specific set of problems and getting tougher on yob behaviour is well overdue. Football hooliganism caused the French 2005 riots? Nothing at all to do with the social situation? Cause from across the Channel, your riots look a lot like ours. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/140 "2011-08-11T14:39:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think part of the reason discussion has focused on looting is because that’s most of what was going on, the arson, although alarming, was not the dominant activity. Firstly, it depends what we mean by dominant activity. Obviously in terms of frequency you are not likely to get more buildings razed than shops stolen from. But secondly, the discussion hasn’t focused on looting, it’s focused on poverty. Which is really a non sequitur. I’ve given my reasoning for why I think they’re happening in quite some detail. The poverty explanation seems to rest on it being “just obviously” about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=8)