# Why are they rioting in London? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096 "2011-08-09T16:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/141 "2011-08-11T15:00:41Z")
Well, OK then - did mobs of wealthy youth swarm into poor and middle-class neighborhoods, smash buildings, and set things on fire? While certainly poverty isn’t the whole story it’s hard to argue it’s not a factor. Part of what complicates these discussions is the human desire to find just one easy explanation for it all. There isn’t. There are always a number of factors at work. ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/142 "2011-08-11T15:30:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, OK then - did mobs of wealthy youth swarm into poor and middle-class neighborhoods, smash buildings, and set things on fire? As I’ve already pointed out there’s not real divide in the rioters; they’re of all economic classes, ages, races and proffessions. The first people to be sentanced have included a primary school assistant teacher and an 11 year old (no direct connection). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/143 "2011-08-11T15:32:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, OK then - did mobs of wealthy youth swarm into poor and middle-class neighborhoods, smash buildings, and set things on fire? As I said before I don’t think many of the richest in society took part, but I want to see evidence it was the poorest. > [@](#): > > While certainly poverty isn’t the whole story it’s hard to argue it’s not a factor. Part of what complicates these discussions is the human desire to find just one easy explanation for it all. There isn’t. There are always a number of factors at work. Sure. But I’m trying to bring some balance here. Shit going down and people saying “Well it’s poverty. We need to tackle the deprivation.” is what _always_ happens in this country. There are not enough people saying “There’s a wicked element in every society, and if you don’t tackle it, it grows”. You’d think this would now be the conclusion: that people would realize how badly wrong their policies were because they’ve led to these appalling scenes. But apparently not. There is nothing that could happen that people won’t make excuses for. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/144 "2011-08-11T15:36:07Z")
Can we get a “trying to understand the reasons behind the rioting (to stop it from happening again) is not excusing or supporting the behaviour of the rioters” sticky or something? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/145 "2011-08-11T15:51:56Z")
^ This. There is a difference between explaining and excusing, and in order to explain we have to question. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/146 "2011-08-11T15:52:36Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Can we get a “trying to understand the reasons behind the rioting (to stop it from happening again) is not excusing or supporting the behaviour of the rioters” sticky or something? Well, from what I’m reading I think the opposing view is something like “the reason behind the rioting is that the rioters are bad people, end of story.” If you approach the situation from that point of view, hanging and flogging 'em makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/147 "2011-08-11T15:55:47Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Football hooliganism caused the French 2005 riots? Nothing at all to do with the social situation? > Cause from across the Channel, your riots look a lot like ours. In Canada, we had furious rioting after the Stanley Cup in Vancouver, quite recently. > **[2011 Vancouver Stanley Cup riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouver_riot_2011)** > > On the evening of June 15, 2011 in the downtown core of Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, a riot broke out almost immediately after the conclusion of the Boston Bruins' victory over the Vancouver Canucks in game seven of the Finals of the National Hockey League to win the Stanley Cup. > Nearly 150 people were injured during the incident, including four by stabbing. On the night of the riot, nearly 100 arrests were made by the Vancouver police, including 85 for breach of peace, 8 for public ... Oddly, though, few here advanced the theory that the rioting in Vancouver was caused by deep-seated social malaise created by a lack of opportunity for Vancouver’s youth. The authorities blamed “anarchists”, but quite evidently most of the rioters were neither disadvantaged youth nor anarchists. Rather, the focus was on mistakes made by the authorities in not anticipating the trouble and not responding to it in a timely and efficient manner. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/148 "2011-08-11T16:03:04Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Well, from what I’m reading I think the opposing view is something like “the reason behind the rioting is that the rioters are bad people, end of story.” If you approach the situation from that point of view, hanging and flogging 'em makes sense. A third possibility is that the rioting was enabled by a lack of prompt response by the authorities, and thus fed on itself (see Vancouver’s 2011 Riot, cited above). Rioting doesn’t really need a deep-seated cause. Certainly there was none in Vancouver. What it needs is a _trigger_ (be it protest at a police shooting or losing a hockey game) and _opportunity for the social compact to evidently break down_, allowing some people to do stuff they are usually inhibited from doing (burn stuff down for fun, steal things, beat people up for kicks, etc.). An element in that opportunity is the advent of social media, which enables crowds to be summoned quickly. From the Vancouver Riot wiki entry: > [@](#): > > Many participants in the riot stood and posed for photographs, with some even posting the photos on their own social media accounts. Photos and videos were also taken by onlookers intent on documenting the riot. In the aftermath, those photos and videos were used by many local people outraged by the riot, in an effort to tag and identify rioters and looters on Facebook, YouTube, and other social media sites, and to provide additional information to police for prosecution.[26] Community participation in assisting police to identify the rioters has been described as unprecedented,[27] and police admitted to being overwhelmed by the amount of evidence provided.[28] While riot instigators were described by police as a small group of anarchists, the collected photographs and videos revealed that many participants were not connected and had never been arrested before.[5][29] Online shaming campaigns resulted in some riot participants being fired from their jobs and removed from athletic teams. In some cases, violence was threatened against those identified as rioters, prompting one family to flee its home,[30] and others to express concern about the potential of mob mentality online.[31] The Vancouver Police Department appealed to citizens, online and otherwise, not to engage in acts of vigilante justice.[32] What is notable is the (apparently, proud) participation of people who had never been in trouble with the police before, who had jobs etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/149 "2011-08-11T16:14:35Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Can we get a “trying to understand the reasons behind the rioting (to stop it from happening again) is not excusing or supporting the behaviour of the rioters” sticky or something? I’m trying to understand the reasons too, but my focus has been on personal responsability, whereas the poverty explanation diminishes it. If poverty were the sole explanation there would be no personal responsability. > [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Well, from what I’m reading I think the opposing view is something like “the reason behind the rioting is that the rioters are bad people, end of story.” If you approach the situation from that point of view, hanging and flogging 'em makes sense. I suspect this may be directed at me, so let’s make it clear: I don’t think it’s just “they’re bad people, end of story”. Nor have I said anything about capital or corporal punishment. Let me put it this way: Let’s say I had a teenage son and I discover he has been stealing money from my wallet. Then I confront him and he says “Shut up, I can take whatever I want from you”. I wouldn’t think: my son is pure evil: he must be killed. Nor would I think: this is a sign of poverty, I must raise his allowance. I would think clearly discipline has failed and my son has no respect at all for me. I need to repair this situation. I need to do that first before I can fix any other problems my son may have. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/150 "2011-08-11T16:25:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What is notable is the (apparently, proud) participation of people who had never been in trouble with the police before, who had jobs etc. It may well be that due to the video/photo documentation of this riot we learn something that has been overlooked, ignored, or missed in previous urban riots… and wouldn’t that be an interesting development? For all we know, that sort of mix of people is more typical than past notions, in which case there might need to be quite a bit of revision on the theories about riots. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/151 "2011-08-11T16:34:31Z")
“The Middle Class Proletariat — The middle classes could become a revolutionary class, taking the role envisaged for the proletariat by Marx. The globalization of labour markets and reducing levels of national welfare provision and employment could reduce peoples’ attachment to particular states. The growing gap between themselves and a small number of highly visible super-rich individuals might fuel disillusion with meritocracy, while the growing urban under-classes are likely to pose an increasing threat to social order and stability, as the burden of acquired debt and the failure of pension provision begins to bite. Faced by these twin challenges, the world’s middle-classes might unite, using access to knowledge, resources and skills to shape transnational processes in their own class interest.” — UK Ministry of Defence report: 'The DCDC Global Strategic Trends Programme 2007-2036’ (Third Edition) p.96, March 2007 ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/152 "2011-08-11T20:42:43Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > What the rioters have in common is poverty. They’re not singling out businesses by race, they’re taking everything that’s not nailed down. [Whoops](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/11/ukriots.accused/index.html?hpt=hp_c1). Taking everything not nailed down is correct. But… > [@](#): > > Reporter Andrew Gilligan wrote in the Daily Telegraph: … "Most were teenagers or in their early twenties, but a surprising number were older. > > “Most interestingly of all, they were predominantly white, and many had jobs.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/153 "2011-08-11T20:47:33Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > [Whoops](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08/11/ukriots.accused/index.html?hpt=hp_c1). Taking everything not nailed down is correct. But… Heh, echoes what I was saying about the Vancouver riots. It wasn’t the no-hopers from the downtown eastside (notorious for its poverty) that rioted - it was often people with jobs and money. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/154 "2011-08-11T23:32:20Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I suspect this may be directed at me, so let’s make it clear: I don’t think it’s just “they’re bad people, end of story”. > Nor have I said anything about capital or corporal punishment. > > Let me put it this way: Let’s say I had a teenage son and I discover he has been stealing money from my wallet. Then I confront him and he says “Shut up, I can take whatever I want from you”. > I wouldn’t think: my son is pure evil: he must be killed. Nor would I think: this is a sign of poverty, I must raise his allowance. > I would think clearly discipline has failed and my son has no respect at all for me. I need to repair this situation. I need to do that first before I can fix any other problems my son may have. Not directed at you personally, and my remarks about “hang 'em and flog 'em” should be taken as hyperbole. There haven’t been all that many people here advocating execution or whatever. Your point seems reasonable enough to me, and if one of my children behaved that way I’d probably consider the issue in the same way. But I’m not convinced it’s possible to extrapolate from a family situation to one where we’re dealing with a riotous mob attacking multiple cities. I do think there’s a problem, and it’s not that we aren’t paying these people enough JSA or ESA or Housing Benefit. There apparently isn’t a sense of community, to the extent that people seem quite happy to set fire to their own neighbourhoods. Someone else here, on one of the threads about this, asked why we have raised a generation of sociopaths. I think this is important, and I don’t think it’s possible to explain this problem, much less solve it, while ignoring that question. By all means we should kick the arses of those rioters we can catch. I’ve got no problem with that - lawless thugs should be in jail. Just as long as we don’t pretend that by doing so we’ve solved the problem. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/155 "2011-08-12T00:31:36Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > He was pointing out, in a snarky way, that you were wrong in all of the claims you made in that post. > > This is Great Debates. When you’re irrational and factually inaccurate, people will call you on it. That’s how it works. And blah blah blah. I was wrong about the UK riots, but not the others. The “irrational and factually inaccurate” thing here is your overwrought response to the breaking of your taboo against speaking honestly about black lawlessness and violence. If you’re going to continue in this vein, take it to the Pit, where I won’t be joining you. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/156 "2011-08-12T00:50:36Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > There apparently isn’t a sense of community, to the extent that people seem quite happy to set fire to their own neighbourhoods. Someone else here, on one of the threads about this, asked why we have raised a generation of sociopaths. I agree there’s little sense of community, but getting it back could take decades if it’s possible at all. I’ve been living at my current address for about a year. I don’t know anyone on the streets nearest my home. I’ve said literally “all right” a couple of times to the guy who lives next door, but I don’t even know his name. And I think I’m pretty representative of british people today. I’ve thought about why it’s like this. One factor is that people view strangers with suspicion. Maybe we’ve had too many paedo headlines for too long 😕 > [@](#): > > By all means we should kick the arses of those rioters we can catch. I’ve got no problem with that - lawless thugs should be in jail. Also we should got more zero tolerance-y with the riots. It’s weird saying this with the background of the arab spring, but the situation here is very different. Here it’s about disdain for the police and a feeling of being untouchable. The more I think about it, the more I think the analogy of a teenager flexing his muscles works well. Because many of them _were_ teenagers and they _are_ just flexing their muscles. It’s just difficult to see this for some, because no-one can believe it would get to this stage. But if you let someone get away with x, tomorrow they’ll try x + 1. Rinse and repeat for about 30 years of policy. For various reasons I don’t think we’ll see riots like this for the next couple of years. But unless something changes (something much more significant than the changes so far), I’m sure something worse will happen in time… ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/157 "2011-08-12T00:59:57Z")
[http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf](http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf) > [@Mijin](#): > > How did we solve it? > Did we ask what were the causes in society of such behaviour? What we should be doing in our communities? > > No, we recognized it for what it was: a bunch of people acting like idiots, and we got tough with them. > > Obviously getting tough on criminal behaviour is no panacea. The point is, britain has its own specific set of problems and getting tougher on yob behaviour is well overdue. 1. Tougher approach, more discipline and firm boundaries for youth. 2. More apprenticeships and army service for unemployed. 3. More police and more prisons works. See Steve Levitt’s paper on causes of the [fall in US crime rates](http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/LevittUnderstandingWhyCrime2004.pdf). 4. For long term beneficiaries, contraception should be a condition of eligibility after 12 months. This is just a basic reciprocal obligation to receiving state money. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/158 "2011-08-12T01:47:08Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And blah blah blah. I was wrong about the UK riots, but not the others. The “irrational and factually inaccurate” thing here is your overwrought response to the breaking of your taboo against speaking honestly about black lawlessness and violence. If you’re going to continue in this vein, take it to the Pit, where I won’t be joining you. Well, since this thread is specifically about the UK riots… But I won’t confuse you with the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/159 "2011-08-12T06:39:59Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And blah blah blah. I was wrong about the UK riots, but not the others. The “irrational and factually inaccurate” thing here is your overwrought response to the breaking of your taboo against speaking honestly about black lawlessness and violence. If you’re going to continue in this vein, take it to the Pit, where I won’t be joining you. That’s fucking hilarious. You get caught, once again, spewing unfounded racist bullshit, and you act outraged that nobody takes you seriously. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/160 "2011-08-12T18:15:19Z")
A 40 percent unemployment for young people is part of the reason. There are a lot of people without hope. The direction the government is headed, looks pretty bad to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=9)