# Why are they rioting in London? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096 "2011-08-09T16:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/161 "2011-08-12T18:48:10Z")
[http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/Small-town-gang-cause-bemusement-Tesco-Express/story-13120472-detail/story.html](http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/Small-town-gang-cause-bemusement-Tesco-Express/story-13120472-detail/story.html) \* They had seen the images from London and Birmingham and wanted to bring a bit of rioting and looting to their own little corner of a West’s market town. With their hoods up and with bricks in hand, they had arranged to meet on Facebook and selected their target – the Tesco Express store in the centre of Calne, Wiltshire. But things didn’t really go according to plan for the Calne Five, who hadn’t exactly done their homework before setting off for a night of rioting, mayhem and looting. For a start, they perhaps failed to realise that the looters of London were smashing shop windows because shops were closed so they could get inside to steal their goods. But if the shop is still open, like the Tesco Express in Calne was at the time on Tuesday night, they could easily have simply walked in through the open door.\* ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/162 "2011-08-12T22:01:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Let me put it this way: Let’s say I had a teenage son and I discover he has been stealing money from my wallet. Then I confront him and he says “Shut up, I can take whatever I want from you”. > I wouldn’t think: my son is pure evil: he must be killed. Nor would I think: this is a sign of poverty, I must raise his allowance. > I would think clearly discipline has failed and my son has no respect at all for me. I need to repair this situation. I need to do that first before I can fix any other problems my son may have. To extend that metaphor, you are also a thief and part of his excuse is “well, you do it!” In a world where the wealthy and powerful loot and break society as they please, are protected from consequences for their actions, and are outright self-righteous about doing so the authorities don’t have a great deal of moral authority when they tell other people to not act the same. It’s hard for a practicing thief to convince his son he shouldn’t steal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/163 "2011-08-12T22:17:10Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > 1. For long term beneficiaries, contraception should be a condition of eligibility after 12 months. This is just a basic reciprocal obligation to receiving state money. You really think you could get something like that through Parliament or Congress? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/164 "2011-08-13T01:07:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To extend that metaphor, you are also a thief and part of his excuse is “well, you do it!” In a world where the wealthy and powerful loot and break society as they please, are protected from consequences for their actions, and are outright self-righteous about doing so the authorities don’t have a great deal of moral authority when they tell other people to not act the same. It’s hard for a practicing thief to convince his son he shouldn’t steal. I’m sorry this just doesn’t wash, it’s not a reasonable extension of my analogy. I’m disappointed that you are still making excuses for this kind of appaling behaviour. Earlier in the thread I mentioned how I am from quite a deprived background myself. A single-parent family where at times my mother struggled to put food on the table, in one of the roughest areas of Birmingham (yes, start the violins…). I and the rest of my family got out of this situation by…working hard. I studied hard and I had a part time job from the age of 12 to…well there’s never been a point where I haven’t worked since then. I didn’t expect anything to fall into my lap. So sure, in the metaphor, I would like it very much if the hypothetical boy followed my example. Now obviously, jobs are harder to come by in the current environment. And if all the people rioting were working hard at school, but ultimately there were only x jobs available I might have some sympathy. But as the data show, many do not. Part-time jobs are still advertised with the most rudimentary of requirements. So if someone genuinely wants to _work_ their way out of poverty, and not make excuses, they still can. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/165 "2011-08-13T01:11:39Z")
[David Starkey is an idiot](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517). ---
**Author:** ![nudgenudge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@nudgenudge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nudgenudge)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/166 "2011-08-13T01:28:25Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > [David Starkey is an idiot](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517). I watched that as it happened, open-mouthed. I’m trying to give Starkey the benefit of the doubt, that he had maybe had a reasonable point somewhere in there, but articulated it very badly. But… man, some of the stuff he came out with. I had to rewind to double-check that he did actually say it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/167 "2011-08-13T01:33:53Z")
> [@nudgenudge](#): > > I watched that as it happened, open-mouthed. I’m trying to give Starkey the benefit of the doubt, that he had maybe had a reasonable point somewhere in there, but articulated it very badly. But… man, some of the stuff he came out with. I had to rewind to double-check that he did actually say it. Seconded. I really wanted him to blast through political correctness and have a good point, but he was just speaking from ignorance and, frankly, racism. I did lol though when he was trying to speak patois… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/168 "2011-08-13T02:18:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m sorry this just doesn’t wash, it’s not a reasonable extension of my analogy. > I’m disappointed that you are still making excuses for this kind of appaling behaviour. And I’m disappointed, or at least irritated that people are still trying to pretend that any attempt at explanation is “making excuses”. > [@Mijin](#): > > So if someone genuinely wants to _work_ their way out of poverty, and not make excuses, they still can. No; like America Britain has little social mobility. Most of the time, trying to work your way out of poverty doesn’t work. And that’s besides the point I was trying to make, anyway. I was making the point that a society where the people on the top of the economic heap openly and self righteously loot and exploit and harm others with no consequences has little moral authority when it tells less wealthy people to not emulate their “betters”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/169 "2011-08-13T03:26:21Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > [David Starkey is an idiot](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517). Oh, sweet fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/170 "2011-08-13T08:42:03Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > [David Starkey is an idiot](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517). What’s funny about Starkey’s comments is that it’s actually the other way around. The Afro-Caribbean population has largely assimilated into the white English underclass. The rampant property crime, public drunkeness, street violence, illegitimacy and welfare dependency are features of the native born, white underclass. [http://www.city-journal.org/assets/images/19\_2-cb2.jpg](http://www.city-journal.org/assets/images/19_2-cb2.jpg) Of course, class has tended to play the same role in Britain that race has in the US, so no surprise that the black underclass in the States and the white underclass in Britain greatly resemble each other. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/171 "2011-08-13T10:00:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And I’m disappointed, or at least irritated that people are still trying to pretend that any attempt at explanation is “making excuses”. Actually we are both attempting to explain these riots. But I’m focusing on personal responsability whereas the poverty explanation diminishes it. In fact, in your case specifically, you talk almost entirely about the greedy rich people and barely mention the people who committed these crimes. ---
**Author:** ![nudgenudge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@nudgenudge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nudgenudge)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/172 "2011-08-13T10:05:25Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > so no surprise that the black underclass in the States and the white underclass in Britain greatly resemble each other. Yes, I’m guessing that that’s part of what Starkey was trying to say, but throwing in stuff like “if you close your eyes, he almost sounds white”, and saying to the (black) woman sitting right next to him “you don’t sound like them” was jaw-droppingly… insensitive? I don’t want to say racist, because I don’t know what the guy actually thinks, but it came across like that. He set off on the wrong foot by appearing to praise Enoch Powell - it became apparent that he perhaps meant something more like “Powell was not wholly wrong”, which is debatable but not necessarily insane, but man, it’s not a good way to get the audience on your side, starting off like that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/173 "2011-08-13T11:24:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Let me put it this way: Let’s say I had a teenage son and I discover he has been stealing money from my wallet. Then I confront him and he says “Shut up, I can take whatever I want from you”. > I wouldn’t think: my son is pure evil: he must be killed. Nor would I think: this is a sign of poverty, I must raise his allowance. > I would think clearly discipline has failed and my son has no respect at all for me. I need to repair this situation. I need to do that first before I can fix any other problems my son may have. True to a point, but do you think grounding him or whupping his arse is going to make him respect you ? Respect is earned. You can’t take it or force someone to give it to you. And if your metaphorical son doesn’t respect you because you’re never home, could give a shit about his schoolwork and toss him on his ear on his 18th birthday, all the while telling him over and over what a piece of shit he is, I don’t think giving him the belt is going to improve his opinion of you none. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/174 "2011-08-13T15:11:00Z")
> [@NineToTheSky](#): > > What worries me about this is that it shows how frighteningly close we are to anarchy. For the first three nights, the rioters were left to do anything they wanted. And what they wanted to do was not minor; they left whole streets decimated. People have lost their homes and businesses, and it’s very lucky that only three people have lost their lives; it could have been so many more. > > This shows that many people are prepared to carry out immoral and illegal actions, and that they care not a jot for the rule of law. And that we are not yet prepared to deal with them. Don’t worry about it. Based on American experience, a riot, however major, never **becomes** anarchy. It dies down like any temper tantrum and the people in the rioting neighborhoods go on living more or less like they lived before. You are frighteningly close to anarchy only in the sense that you are (if you live in London) frighteningly close to starvation: It could happen, but the whole political-economic-industrial system would have to break down first, and you’d see it all coming from far away. ---
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/175 "2011-08-14T03:14:59Z")
Please read the second edition of “The Meritochracy Myth.” People across the world are beginning to understand that the “Haves” do not _ **have** _ because they are more virtuous, or intelligent, or talented…but because of their access to power or wealth. And are beginning to understand that those who control the wealth of the world and the militaries of the world and the governments of the world are NOT more virtuous or hard working or intelligent or talented…they are just those who already have it, are not willing to share it, and must figure out strategies to keep the ‘masses’ from discovering their need of them. The “Arab Spring” - the “London Uprisings” - the dysfuntion of the current American system… the Elites are already meeting across the globe and trying to figure out how to ‘contain’ this. Can they? ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/176 "2011-08-14T07:52:10Z")
People have understood these truths for quite some time. You have just stumbled upon a conspiracy of six billion against one. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/177 "2011-08-14T08:15:54Z")
The word “meritocracy” has been hijacked by the rich to provide moral cover for their position. The word originates in The Rise of the Meritocracy by Michael Young, who wrote the Labour Party manifesto in 1945. A remarkably accurate prediction of the future, although the term “meritocracy” was a self-fulfilling prophecy. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/178 "2011-08-14T10:11:35Z")
Harriet Sergeant, a fellow of the Centre for Policy Studies, an independent Think Tank, has published a study _WASTED: The betrayal of white working class and black Caribbean boys_, which I have found very interesting. It was published before the riots, but it goes some way into exploring the motivation - or more importantly the lack of it - that drives their lives. (The paper is public domain.) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/179 "2011-08-14T11:12:27Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > [David Starkey is an idiot](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517). In some ways what I’ve found worse than the original event is some of the opinions following it. Here’s [Toby Young](http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100100845/was-david-starkey-being-racist-on-newsnight-last-night/) of the Telegraph trying to defend some of the comments using the most convoluted logic (e.g. “the blacks” isn’t a generalization – he meant a particular part of black culture). I’m not saying we should all be proclaiming “Starkey is a racist”, but he did make some inappropriate and ignorant (e.g. wrt rap music) comments and people that won’t admit even that are showing their true colours. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096/180 "2011-08-14T11:33:03Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#): > > Please read the second edition of “The Meritochracy Myth.” > > People across the world are beginning to understand that the “Haves” do not _ **have** _ because they are more virtuous, or intelligent, or talented…but because of their access to power or wealth. > > And are beginning to understand that those who control the wealth of the world and the militaries of the world and the governments of the world are NOT more virtuous or hard working or intelligent or talented…they are just those who already have it, are not willing to share it, and must figure out strategies to keep the ‘masses’ from discovering their need of them. > > The “Arab Spring” - the “London Uprisings” - the dysfuntion of the current American system… the Elites are already meeting across the globe and trying to figure out how to ‘contain’ this. > > Can they? First of all I think it is disgusting to put these riots alongside the arab spring. This is not an oppressed population risking their lives to make a positive change for the future. This was a bunch of yobs organising to burn down innocent people’s shops and homes, mug people and steal whatever they could. Let’s try not to lose sight of what actually happened. * * * Britain is not a meritocracy. No country is, and it is a straw man to accuse anyone of suggesting it is. I earlier said that hard-working children would escape poverty. This is not to say that everyone has the same opportunities and there’s no advantage to being born into a rich family. But social mobility is still good in our country compared to most of the world and most of our history. I think there’s a worldview that money just rains from the sky and if some people have more of it it is because they’ve taken your share. Instead, it’s business and enterprise that create wealth and it’s just the way capitalism plays out that money tends to gravitate towards money. Governments should try to redistribute some of the wealth but no-one should feel entitled to anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-they-rioting-in-london/592096.md?page=10)