# Why are those in favor of greater gun control opposed to concealed carry licenses? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757 "2012-12-11T22:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/121 "2012-12-13T15:58:55Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > What are the statistics on how likely you are to need that gun on your trip to Wal-Mart? > [@Scumpup](#): > > It’s not the odds. It’s the stakes. This. Any sane risk assessment includes both the odds of events from doing/not-doing an action but the magnitude of those events. Most people who carry concealed firearms (correctly or not) will rate their chances of a bad outcome happening to them as a result of carrying lower than the chances of a bad outcome happening to them as a result of not carrying. Additionally, they’ll consider that the worst outcomes from carrying are likely not as bad for them as the worst outcomes associated with not carrying. Someone concerned about the risk to themselves as a non-firearm-carrier might want to support studies from unbiased sources examining actual risks, controlled for a variety of factors such as type and amount of training. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/122 "2012-12-13T16:05:19Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It’s not the odds. It’s the stakes. Shouldn’t this argument work both ways, though? 1. You’re unlikely to need a gun for self-defense at the supermarket, but you want it with you just in case. 2. You’re unlikely to be attacked by someone carrying legally at the supermarket, but you want to know they’re carrying and avoid them just in case. People in this thread seem to be saying that only one of these two positions is irrational (but not agreeing on which one). Why? They’re both people worrying about a low-probability event. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/123 "2012-12-13T16:18:08Z")
I don’t object to you wanting to know who has a gun. It’s information that I like to have, myself. What the pro-gun side is up against here, though, is a no-win situation. If we carry concealed, then you don’t know we have a gun and you believe that situation to be wrong. If we open carry, then we are perceived as being “cowboy” or some even worse shit. The other side can’t bring themselves to tolerate us carrying at all. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/124 "2012-12-13T16:34:01Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Shouldn’t this argument work both ways, though? > > 1. You’re unlikely to need a gun for self-defense at the supermarket, but you want it with you just in case. > > 2. You’re unlikely to be attacked by someone carrying legally at the supermarket, but you want to know they’re carrying and avoid them just in case. > > People in this thread seem to be saying that only one of these two positions is irrational (but not agreeing on which one). Why? They’re both people worrying about a low-probability event. But most of the folks arguing for position 2 in this thread seem to oppose legal open carry as well as legal concealed carry (even though open carry is giving them what they want - the ability to see and therefore avoid a legally armed person). So something else is going on. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/125 "2012-12-13T16:43:58Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > What are the statistics on how likely you are to need that gun on your trip to Wal-Mart? The chance is very small I would need it. But so what? The chance of your house burning down is very small, yet you still have a smoke alarm. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/126 "2012-12-13T16:55:13Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The chance is very small I would need it. But so what? The chance of your house burning down is very small, yet you still have a smoke alarm. The question is, does the smoke alarm accurately symbolize the gun in this metaphor? I think it would be more like a set of fire sprinklers that can damage the interior of the house. And randomly destroy other houses if used improperly. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/127 "2012-12-13T19:07:08Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Shouldn’t this argument work both ways, though? > > 1. You’re unlikely to need a gun for self-defense at the supermarket, but you want it with you just in case. > > 2. You’re unlikely to be attacked by someone carrying legally at the supermarket, but you want to know they’re carrying and avoid them just in case. > > People in this thread seem to be saying that only one of these two positions is irrational (but not agreeing on which one). Why? They’re both people worrying about a low-probability event. Largely, my rationale for thinking the way I do is twofold: 1. Practically, open carry leaves people open to undue harassment from everyone from well-meaning public to cops to anti-gun zealots. This is an additional risk. 2. Statistically speaking, and again limited data is available, CCW holders are as or somewhat less risky than the general public with regard to gun crime, so knowing who is LEGALLY in possession of a gun doesn’t actually give you any useful risk assessment information. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/128 "2012-12-13T19:16:39Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The question is, does the smoke alarm accurately symbolize the gun in this metaphor? I think it would be more like a set of fire sprinklers that can damage the interior of the house. And randomly destroy other houses if used improperly. A gun can’t randomly do anything. Only a person can. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/129 "2012-12-13T20:20:02Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > A gun can’t randomly do anything. Only a person can. Exactly. A person who is bad at risk assessment and perhaps nervous (to the point of thinking a gun is necessary at a supermarket) can have unpredictable responses to situations. That said, guns don’t fire by themselves. But once fired, _the bullets_ can go through walls, ricochet or simply hit the wrong target. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/130 "2012-12-13T20:42:37Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The chance is very small I would need it. But so what? The chance of your house burning down is very small, yet you still have a smoke alarm. But you said > [@](#): > > I find it interesting that a presumably educated person would actively avoid me simply because I am openly carrying a handgun. I wonder, despite their education, if such a person understands even the rudimentary principles of odds & statistics. Can’t they make the same argument? “The chance is very small that you’ll shoot them. But so what? Better safe than sorry.” Why do you take a gun with you on shopping trips, despite the low-probability that you’ll need it, but then criticize others for avoiding your gun-carrying self despite the low probability that the gun will be turned on them? It seems like you’re both trying to avoid very low-probability risks. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/131 "2012-12-13T21:04:09Z")
Because the risk of **Crafter\_Man** shooting someone is lower than the risk of someone attacking **Crafter\_Man**. As he states - > [@](#): > > Statistically speaking, and again limited data is available, CCW holders are as or somewhat less risky than the general public with regard to gun crime, so knowing who is LEGALLY in possession of a gun doesn’t actually give you any useful risk assessment information. Both are low-probability. One is lower than the other. I doubt you are doing gun carriers any harm by avoiding them, so feel free as far as I am concerned. But it is rather like be scared of black people because you are afraid they are going to mug you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/132 "2012-12-13T21:05:16Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > But you said > > Can’t they make the same argument? “The chance is very small that you’ll shoot them. But so what? Better safe than sorry.” > > Why do you take a gun with you on shopping trips, despite the low-probability that you’ll need it, but then criticize others for avoiding your gun-carrying self despite the low probability that the gun will be turned on them? It seems like you’re both trying to avoid very low-probability risks. As I understand it, the rate of gun crime per population among legal carriers of firearms is the same as the rate of gun crime per population among the general populace. Which seems to imply that any given pedestrian has approximately the same odds of whipping out a previously-concealed gun and shooting you as the legally openly carrying guy does, counter-intuitive though it may seem. The fact that you can see the holstered gun doesn’t tell you all that much from a strict risk-assessment perspective As usual, standard disclaimer about relative lack of statistics on CCW holders. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/133 "2012-12-13T21:13:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Exactly. A person who is bad at risk assessment and perhaps nervous (to the point of thinking a gun is necessary at a supermarket) can have unpredictable responses to situations. But if you see me carrying a gun at the supermarket, how can you _possibly_ know that I’m bad at risk assessment? For all you know, I’m packing heat because I have the Boyfriend from Hell stalking me, and even though I’ve filed a restraining order against him I have no way of knowing if or when he’ll show up, or what he’ll do to me if he does. Or maybe I’m carrying because I just finished a session at the shooting range and need to pick up something for dinner before I drive home, and the gun’s more secure carried on my person than it is locked in my car where it’s more vulnerable to theft. Seems to me that if you see someone carrying, all you can know for sure is that they’re carrying. Trying to deduce anything beyond that is silly. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/134 "2012-12-13T21:16:02Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > As I understand it, the rate of gun crime per population among legal carriers of firearms is the same as the rate of gun crime per population among the general populace. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/135 "2012-12-13T21:24:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not the average citizen they’re worried about. Is that to mean “only yahoos would want to carry a gun in the first place”? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/136 "2012-12-13T21:26:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Both are low-probability. One is lower than the other. So what’s the threshold at which a risk is sufficiently low-probability that worrying about it suggests that one doesn’t understand “even the rudimentary principles of odds & statistics” (as **Crafter\_Man** put it)? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/137 "2012-12-13T21:31:17Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > But if you see me carrying a gun at the supermarket, how can you _possibly_ know that I’m bad at risk assessment? For all you know, I’m packing heat because I have the Boyfriend from Hell stalking me, and even though I’ve filed a restraining order against him I have no way of knowing if or when he’ll show up, or what he’ll do to me if he does. I can’t know it. There are a lot of good reasons to carry a firearm. But I’d assume that most people do it because they are afraid of random violence. > [@](#): > > Or maybe I’m carrying because I just finished a session at the shooting range and need to pick up something for dinner before I drive home, and the gun’s more secure carried on my person than it is locked in my car where it’s more vulnerable to theft. See above. > [@](#): > > Seems to me that if you see someone carrying, all you can know for sure is that they’re carrying. Trying to deduce anything beyond that is silly. I’m not talking about knowing anything for sure. I don’t know that you aren’t a robot from the future _for sure_. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/138 "2012-12-13T21:31:35Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Is that to mean “only yahoos would want to carry a gun in the first place”? :rolleyes: I’m took it to mean “The average citizen is not carrying a gun to the supermarket, so the fact that someone is distrusting of a person who carries a gun to the supermarket does not indicate that he regards ‘the intelligence and responsibility of the average citizen’ with ‘utter contempt’.” ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/139 "2012-12-13T21:32:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m not talking about knowing anything for sure. I don’t know that you aren’t a robot from the future _for sure_. If I see a robot from the future carrying a firearm in the grocery store, I’m _definitely_ going to avoid them.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757/140 "2012-12-14T04:24:52Z")
> [@yoyodyne](#): > > Cite? No direct ones, as far as I know there’s never been a formal study done. I’ll have to dig out the thread I did this research for, but I compared reported gun crime rates in the two states I could find published stats about CCW holders in, and those rates tracked somewhat lower than the general rates for the same crimes in those states. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-those-in-favor-of-greater-gun-control-opposed-to-concealed-carry-licenses/643757.md?page=8)