# Why are trade marks needed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 17, 2005, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750 "2005-04-17T09:36:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ageless6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@ageless6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ageless6)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/1 "2005-04-17T09:36:01Z")
I’ve searched the fora for the last year and come up with nothing. I see the [sup]tm[/sup] sign all the time when pertaining to commercial products, but I’m not sure why. I never thought much about it, but earlier I was reading “What does a Martian look like”, and they mentioned “Lego[sup]tm[/sup]logs twice, and I wondered what would happen if they just said “Lego logs” instead. Could they be sued for not using the trade mark sign, and if so, what’s the reasoning behind it? Are they afraid some manufacturer looking for a name for his product might say"Aha, Lego would be a perfect name for my line of panty hose”. It wouldn’t of course, but you apprehend my drift, dontcha? Anyway, what would be the possible consequences? ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/2 "2005-04-17T11:10:49Z")
I can only speak for the Trade Mark laws in the UK, but putting TM or that R in a circle jobby ® next to your trade mark is just a means of warning everyone that it is, in fact, being used as someone’s trade mark (whether registered or not), i.e. to indicate the origin of the goods/services in question, and that infringement may lead to a lawsuit from the owners. It used to be very possible to have two identical trade marks in completely different fields owned by completely different companies - where there was absolutely no risk of confusion. To use your example, nobody in his or her right mind seeing the mark “Lego” on a pair of tights would ever expect it to have originated from the same people who make those toy bricks. Unless, that is, the original Lego people could demonstrate that their mark had become so well-known to the public that they would indeed always associate it, whatever the goods it was on, with their company. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/3 "2005-04-17T12:37:23Z")
as a slight hijack, is the [sup]tm[/sup] sign actually a ‘trademark mark’?? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/4 "2005-04-17T14:23:10Z")
Trademarks [sup]TM[/sup] and service marks [sup]SM[/sup] as well as the older Register mark ® are all used for one simple reason: you can lose your trademark if you don’t vigorously defend them. This cuts two ways. The owner of the the trademark needs to follow the rules on trademark notification by using the mark in all the right places. This doesn’t necessary mean that it must follow the name in every single case the name is used. That would get ugly. If you go to the [Lego website](http://www.lego.com/eng/Default.aspx) you won’t see the marks after any of the uses of Lego. There are legal disclaimers, though, on the site and the Google search puts an ® after the name: [LEGO.com](http://LEGO.com): The Official Web Site of LEGO ® products! The flip side is whether I need to ensure that I follow their rules and mark their name. The answer is yes. Not only that, there are any number of proper and improper uses. Take a look at this list of rules from the [Jacuzzi ® website](http://www.jacuzzi.com/about/trademark.php) > [@](#): > > A. Trademarks are Adjectives > Trademarks are adjectives intended to identify a particular company, or group of related companies, as the source or origin of a product. > > B. Trademarks should not be Used Without an Associated Generic Product Name > Because trademarks are adjectives that identify the source or origin of the product, they should always be used with the correct generic product name for the product item. > > C. How to Refer to More Than One Trademarked Product > When you are referring to more than a single product item, do not pluralize the trademark. Instead, describe a plural reference to trademarked products by using the plural form of the generic product name. > > D. Trademarks Should Not Be Used as Verbs > Because trademarks are adjectives, they must never be used as verbs to describe an activity. > > E. Trademarks Should Not Be Used in the Possessive Form > Nouns are sometimes used in the possessive form. For instance, one might say “This spa’s temperature is perfect.” Because trademarks are adjectives, not nouns, they should not be made possessive. Instead, the generic product name should be made possessive. Realistically and legally, in everyday speech and writing there is no requirement that the casual user follow these rules and regulations. I can freely talk about jacuzzi tubs. I can put a Jacuzzi into a work of fiction. I can jacuzzisize my bathtub. But Jacuzzi as a company, remember, needs to vigorously defend its trademark. That’s why it’s lawyers send out a zillion letters each year telling people about these rules, reminding them that Jacuzzi is a registered trademark, and asking them nicely to comply. Unless you are using the term in a commercial sense, as a competitor, a reseller, or a retailer, they don’t need to go any farther, because they’ve done their legal duty. In a certain sense, this is all a game, because the law understand that no company can police the English language and all its users. But it is a serious game, because companies can lose their trademarks and that often has major economic consequences. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/5 "2005-04-17T15:32:10Z")
Just as an aside, companies take ads out in magazines like _Writer’s Digest_ to remind writers and editors that some names are registered trademarks. For example, I remember an ad that the Day-Glo® paint manufacturers took out. The ad explained in a rather friendly tone that while anything can be painted with fluorescent paint, there is only one Day-Glo® brand fluorescent paint, and to please respect their trademark. The Associated Press stylebooks are also loaded with this kind of information. That said, some names have been “genericized”. Aspirin and cellophane are two words that were, at one time, trademarks in the U.S., but have now become generic names. You wouldn’t ask for an ASA or acetylsalicylic acid for a headache, nor would you wrap something in clear plastic. No, you ask for an aspirin or wrap that package in cellophane. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/6 "2005-04-17T17:35:55Z")
Cellophane was a trade name at one time, but it’s not the same stuff as today’s Saran Wrap. [http://www.wackyuses.com/wf\_saran.html](http://www.wackyuses.com/wf_saran.html) > [@](#): > > Today polyvinylchloride and polypropylene films have replaced cellophane in almost every area where heat is not present. Aspirin is still a trademark in some countries, BTW. > **[Aspirin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin)** > > Aspirin, also known as acetylsalicylic acid (ASA), is a medication used to reduce pain, fever, or inflammation. Specific inflammatory conditions which aspirin is used to treat include Kawasaki disease, pericarditis, and rheumatic fever. > Aspirin given shortly after a heart attack decreases the risk of death. Aspirin is also used long-term to help prevent further heart attacks, ischaemic strokes, and blood clots in people at high risk. For pain or fever, effects typically begin within 30 minute... > [@](#): > > The name “aspirin” is composed of a- (for the acetyl group) -spir- (for the spiraea flower) and -in (a common ending for drugs at the time). Bayer registered it as a trademark on March 6, 1899. > > However, the German company lost the right to use the trademark in many countries as the Allies seized and resold its foreign assets after World War I. The right to use “Aspirin” in the United States (along with all other Bayer trademarks) was purchased from the U.S. government by Sterling Drug, Inc in 1918. Even before the patent for the drug expired in 1917, Bayer had been unable to stop competitors from copying the formula and using the name elsewhere, and so with a flooded market, the public was unable to recognize “Aspirin” as coming from only one manufacturer. Sterling was subsequently unable to prevent “Aspirin” from being ruled a generic mark (and therefore unprotected) in a U.S. federal court in 1921. Other countries (such as Canada) still consider “Aspirin” a protected trademark. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/7 "2005-04-17T19:43:36Z")
Just to reinforce what has already been said, I have a bottle of Safeway generic acetylsalicylic acid in front of me. Its label says “A.S.A. Acetylsalicylic Acid Tablets B.P. (5 GRAIN) 325 mg”. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/8 "2005-04-17T22:44:26Z")
I know that Aspirin is still a trademark in many countries, which is why I said “in the U.S.” I also know that cellophane and Saran Wrap® aren’t the same thing. (FTR, my grandmother will wrap fruit baskets and things like that in clear plastic she calls cellophane; that’s what I meant.) Robin ---
**Author:** ![VernWinterbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c67d28/32.png) [@VernWinterbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VernWinterbottom)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/9 "2005-04-18T00:47:16Z")
Twenty or so years ago, I worked for a small weekly newspaper with a circulation of probably no more than 5,000 in two neighboring towns in Massachusetts. I wrote a short piece in which I mentioned tossing a frisbee. Two or three months later I got a letter from Wham-O or somebody, telling me that I should have written “FRISBEE® brand flying disk.” Another time I wrote about a styrofoam coffee cup, only to get another letter from a major chemical company informing me that coffee cups aren’t made of Styrofoam® and would I please stop telling the residents of two small southeastern Massachusetts towns otherwise! Obviously a local newspaper clipper was reporting me. I do it on purpose now to see if I’ll get letters. ---
**Author:** ![ageless6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@ageless6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ageless6)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/10 "2005-04-18T03:23:28Z")
So lemme see does I has this straight; I don’t have to use the Lego[sup]tm[/sup] if I’m casually mentioning Lego blocks on the SD or if I’m writing a novel, but I _do_ if I write non-fiction, or write for a newspaper, or anything else that is meant for wide distribution. Is that pretty close? BTW, how do you make the circle with the r in it? I went through all the coding and couldn’t find anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/11 "2005-04-18T03:58:02Z")
It seems to depend on a lot of factors, but Alt + 0174 on the numeric keypad works for me to produce a ®. And yes, you need to type the 0. ---
**Author:** ![ageless6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@ageless6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ageless6)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/12 "2005-04-18T04:23:41Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > It seems to depend on a lot of factors, but Alt + 0174 on the numeric keypad works for me to produce a ®. And yes, you need to type the 0. °¹¾¢–0--0174 °¹¾¢–±°¹¾¢ ±°¹¾¢ +0174 0174 ±°¹¾¢ 0174 °¹¾¢ +0174 Mrumph! Doesn’t seem to work, although it may be another non-feature of my webtv. But I seem to be able to say one and three quarters of a cent, which I’m sure will be very helpful at least once in every post. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/13 "2005-04-18T04:59:02Z")
> [@VernWinterbottom](#): > > Twenty or so years ago, I worked for a small weekly newspaper with a circulation of probably no more than 5,000 in two neighboring towns in Massachusetts. > > I wrote a short piece in which I mentioned tossing a frisbee. > > Two or three months later I got a letter from Wham-O or somebody, telling me that I should have written “FRISBEE® brand flying disk.” > > Another time I wrote about a styrofoam coffee cup, only to get another letter from a major chemical company informing me that coffee cups aren’t made of Styrofoam® and would I please stop telling the residents of two small southeastern Massachusetts towns otherwise! I’m surprised that companies such as Johnson & Johnson, Rollerblade, Good-Humor-Bryers, Will Vinton Studios, Kimberly-Clark and others don’t hyperenforce trademarks that are often used to represent the type of product as a whole, such as (respectively) Band-Aid®, Rollerblades®, Popsicle®, Claymation®, and Kleenex®. (I realize Claymation® is an animation process and not a product, but it’s still thrown around a lot.) One of the funniest letters I’ve read regarding trademark misuse is reprinted in Gary Larson’s _Complete Far Side_. It is something to the effect of “Ineffective Mob Weapons,” and features a mobster saying something like “Not talking, eh? Maybe a few hits with this wiffle bat will change that.” He is holding a yellow bat with holes in it. Larson then recived a kindly letter from the good folks at The Wiffle Ball, Inc., which informed Larson of the fact that a) The Wiffle Ball, Inc. does not make bats that look like that, b) any reference to WIFFLE® balls or any other WIFFLE® products should have the trademark capitalized thusly, and c) not to use the WIFFLE® trademark again in reference to products not actually manufactured by The Wiffle Ball, Inc. I side with Larson on this one. “Maybe a few hits with this plastic baseball bat ideal for hitting WIFFLE® Balls with despite the fact that it is not manufactured by The Wiffle Ball, Inc. will change that” isn’t that funny given the options. (Then again, this is the same man who recieved a letter from an Italian-American group regarding a cartoon he did involving “The Sandwich Mafia,” so who knows?) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/14 "2005-04-18T14:32:10Z")
> [@ageless6](#): > > So lemme see does I has this straight; I don’t have to use the Lego[sup]tm[/sup] if I’m casually mentioning Lego blocks on the SD or if I’m writing a novel, but I _do_ if I write non-fiction, or write for a newspaper, or anything else that is meant for wide distribution. Is that pretty close? No. Journalists are not required to use a trademark or servicemark symbol. There are basically only two places where you will find those marks: 1. In anything published by the trademark owner (for example, the packaging of the product, or a print advertisement). 2. Any use of the trademark or servicemark by others _in a commercial context_ (for example, “Compare our cotton swabs to Q-Tips® brand”). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/15 "2005-04-18T15:10:24Z")
> [@ageless6](#): > > So lemme see does I has this straight; I don’t have to use the Lego[sup]tm[/sup] if I’m casually mentioning Lego blocks on the SD or if I’m writing a novel, but I _do_ if I write non-fiction, or write for a newspaper, or anything else that is meant for wide distribution. > Is that pretty close? > BTW, how do you make the circle with the r in it? I went through all the coding and couldn’t find anything about it. No, no, no, no, never, never, never, no. Trademark issues are solely the headaches of the trademark owners and people they perceive to be their commercial competitors. Unless you are the owner of the trademark in question or you are a commercial competitor of the owner of the trademark, you never need worry about these things. You can use their trademark any damn way you please and you can forget you have ever heard of the ™ and (R) symbols. It doesn’t matter if you are writing something that is available for commercial or widespread distribution, whether news articles or fiction or whatever. You need never worry about them. The most they can do is send you a letter, but you may safely ignore these as well. Unless they are accusing you of infringement or dilution or some other actionable claim, they can’t do squat to you. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/16 "2005-04-18T15:40:52Z")
Exactly. Essentially, the First Amendment trumps trademark law. It is only in a manufacturing/sales context (and the First Amendment does not apply – note how the FTC can ban misleading ads) that it becomes an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/17 "2005-04-18T18:48:50Z")
In answer to the original question, trademarks exist specifically so that a company can prevent others from using their brand names and/or product names. If I spend millions convincing people to buy Framjammit brand tachometers, I don’t want some upstart to write “Framjammit” across the top of _their_ tachometers to take away my sales. Trademarks are specific to market areas, incidentally. In the above example, I couldn’t prevent somebody from selling Framjammit brand monkey chow. The reason for the letters people are mentioning is that there is a requirement for a company to defend its trademarks. If I did nothing when everyone on the planet used the term Framjammit to mean “tachometer,” I’d never be able to win a trademark lawsuit against a competitor. On the other hand, if I could demonstrate that I’d sent a “cease and desist” letter every time my trademark was misused, the court would more likely smile favorably upon me. IANAL, by the way, but I’ve defended a trademark or two in my time. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/18 "2005-04-18T18:55:52Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] In answer to the original question,[q/uote] Seeing the title of the thread, I had originally planned to go into this stuff, but upon reading the OP, I thought that it seemed he was not asking about trademarks themselves but just about the “TM” marks and such. > [@](#): > > trademarks exist specifically so that a company can prevent others from using their brand names and/or product names. If I spend millions convincing people to buy Framjammit brand tachometers, I don’t want some upstart to write “Framjammit” across the top of _their_ tachometers to take away my sales. It’s not actually so clear. There is an argument that trademark exist primarily to prevent confusion among consumers about the origin of goods or services. Protecting a trademark holder’s property interest is secondary to the consumer protection aspect. > [@](#): > > Trademarks are specific to market areas, incidentally. In the above example, I couldn’t prevent somebody from selling Framjammit brand monkey chow. This principle is grounded in the notion of consumer confusion. There is an exception for “famous” trademarks, like “Kodak,” “Xerox,” “Coca-Cola,” etc., which may give rise to a claim of trademark dilution. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if I could demonstrate that I’d sent a “cease and desist” letter every time my trademark was misused, the court would more likely smile favorably upon me. And just to reiterate, unless the person receiving the letter is using the trademark as an identifier for goods or services that he or she is selling, then they may safely ignore such letters. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/19 "2005-04-18T21:43:44Z")
> [@VernWinterbottom](#): > > I do it on purpose now to see if I’ll get letters. Oh, you do it on purpose? Well now, that judgment just got a whole lot bigger… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ageless6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@ageless6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ageless6)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750/20 "2005-04-18T22:32:27Z")
I wish to once more thank the contributors for pummeling me with information until I’m so exhausted that I just stand there with my arms at my sides and allow the knowledge to seep in. In other words, this thread has admirably done its’ duty. Oh, and **RealityChuck** , the idea of deliberately collaborating to produce ‘The world’s worst book’ fascinates me, even though the reviews were uniformly positive, in a sort of shocked and nauseated way. I’ll bookmark it until I get the money. Aside from food, gas, etc. my budget for dreck is alarmingly low this month. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-trade-marks-needed/299750.md?page=2)