# Why are Union Workers paid so much? Did I waste my time studying? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 5, 2001, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329 "2001-07-05T12:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/41 "2001-07-06T14:01:30Z")
So after all this, **GIS** what, if anything, is your General Question? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/42 "2001-07-06T15:08:27Z")
From the London Evening Standard July 5: Cleaners at the Wimbledon tennis tournament are complaining about a drop in pay. They will now earn £4 per hour ($6 / hour), instead of £6 / hour ($9 / hour). Their union, the GMB, has taken up the matter. First prize in the men’s championships is £500,000 ($750,000). My comments: Interestingly the players are also unionised (ATP). There are two confirmed facts in this message - exactly two more than GodImStupid has provided. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/43 "2001-07-07T01:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\ ***Attrayant** wrote > > > [@](#): > > > > Many (but not all) unionized workers are tradesmen. That is, they have a highly marketable skill and can do things like build, repair, & demolish things with their hands. These kinds of skills have a universal demand, and seem to have immunity to economic hiccups. The economy could tank right now and I’d still have a paycheck for the next three years because of my contract. > > I don’t think the terms “marketable” and “universal demand” mean what you think they do. They mean “desirable”. During an “economic hiccup” as you describe it, they are no longer desirable by definition. You don’t have a continued job because you are “marketable” or in “universal demand”. You have a job because your union threatened your employer with economic violence if they did not give you this employment guarantee.\*\* Yeah… It’s amazing how often a laborer with ‘highly marketable skills’ gets laid off and finds out that there just isn’t a huge demand for high school graduates who can stand in one place and run an impact wrench all day. ‘Highly marketable skills’ my ass. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/44 "2001-07-07T02:58:03Z")
Theoretically, **GIS** , is not just being obtuse. Here are four “dollar” currencies I found on [The Universal Currency Converter[sup]TM[/sup]](http://www.xe.com/ucc/) that _could_ make **GIS** ’s claims valid: ```auto Hong Kong 100 HKD = 12.82 USD Jamaica 100 JMD = 2.20 USD Taiwan 100 TWD = 2.91 USD Trinidad & Tobago 100 TTD = 16.37 USD ``` I could see unionized employees making these amounts. Trying to narrow down which country **GIS** might be living in, I see that **GIS** tends to post in the morning (EDT). **GIS** could posting from Hong Kong or Taiwan in the evenings (13 hour time difference I think), which would make sense. On the other hand, **GIS** mentions “many Prime Ministers” (ignoring the “many” for now). Both Jamaica and T&T have prime ministers, so that’s points for them. Anyone know the union situations in these countries? Of course, **GIS** is posting to a message board based in the U.S., doesn’t mention anything about a different currency than U.S. dollars, ignores requests for any details, so maybe **GIS** _is_ just be obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrison_s_Lament)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/45 "2001-07-07T03:15:05Z")
I find it mindboggling how little information we are being given to go on here, and the little we have has been leaked in tiny snippets throughout this dying thread. Just join the darned union and start cleaning 'em toilets or tell us what we need to know. 😃 Where you live would be a good start, beacuse there is no way anyone is making 100$ US an hour for cleaning toilets, like you said in your OP but seemed to refute later on. I am intregued by the OP, however, because I have often considered giving up on University. — G. Raven ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/46 "2001-07-07T05:24:59Z")
Sound’s to me like \*\*Stu[/n] (may I call you Stu?) simply made some bad choices in life. I hear this s&d all the time from lower level white collar worker bees. And (ahem) lab techs. If you don’t make enough money, do something about it. Organize, change jobs, _something_. I’m not union (They de-certified years ago. Big mistake.) nor am I college educated. But I make 1/2 a ton of money. Mostly because I got lucky, but also because I’m a quick learner. Don’t most people research wage potential before deciding on a carreer? Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Wind\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Autumn\_Wind\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Wind_Chick)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/47 "2001-07-07T11:08:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > \*\* > As to the skill-less-ness of middle-managers, all I can say is you really are putting on some blinders. \*\* I agree that many middle-managers are good, but from my experience, many of them are not very competent; add absolutely no value; waste everybody’s time by making subordinates perform useless tasks for the sake of their own egos; and hurt morale by micro-managing people, keeping the most interesting tasks for themselves, and spreading the blame for problems that they themselves create. Now, I realize that every position has good and bad people. But, when you put someone in the position of “middle-manager,” it tends to bring out the worst in people. As far as the OP goes, $100/hr seems a little high. But, I have a friend of a friend who is a conductor on a commuter railway - the amount of money he makes (for a union position that does not require a lot of skill) is phenomenal. ---
**Author:** ![SkeptiJess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@SkeptiJess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkeptiJess)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/48 "2001-07-07T11:36:53Z")
**GIS**? What are they cleaning out of the toilets? Nuclear waste? Leftover Ebola virus? What? I’ve gotta say, like most everyone else, I doubt your facts. I’m just about 100% certain that “every” union worker in your ship does _not_ make $100 per hour. Wages would vary according to seniority, type of skill, etc. Cleaning toilets is, as someone else pointed out, unskilled labor. I’m guessing that you got your “facts” during a hard-hitting investigation that went something like this: _GIS_: So, how much do you make an hour anyway? _Unionized Toilet Cleaner with a Sense of Humor_: Oh, 100 bucks. _GIS_: What?! $100 an HOUR!? _UTCw/aSoH_: Sure. It’s the union – they make 'em pay all us union guys $100.00 per hour. You wasted your money at that fancy college, son. Then the UTCw/aSoH heads off to the break room laughing his ass off. I could be wrong, of course. Possibly, **GIS** , as a scientist/pharmacist you have access to every union-worker’s pay history. In that case, I’m gonna have to join my compatriots in asking for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Glenoled](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Glenoled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glenoled)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/49 "2001-07-07T14:12:34Z")
a little OT, but… I know that many management-types working where I work, are only there because when came “downsize-time”, these people (for example, a secretary) were friends with the right people, and new jobs were created, so they wouldn’t have to be let go… the secretary, in example, was given the position of “Quality Assurance”, about which she knew nothing (she knows little more now.) This is just to illustrate that sometimes, management-types aren’t really as bright as their position would make us assume… I’m unionized, OTOH, and have about 5 years seniority at out plant (big bakery, we supply to all the Canadian Maritimes, plus a couple US contracts.) I run the mixer, and am making just under $15/h… but even in the middle of the summer, I’m still not guaranteed 40h/wk, and it’ll be at least another few years before I am… the only concept of ‘advancement’ that exists where I work, is getting a better shift. working in the day, instead of the night shift, for example… so no matter how long I’m there, all I’ll see is the $15/h (plus whatever measley raises we get) I’m getting now. Speaking of raises, the plant’s heads of union decided that any raises we get will go straight into the pension (guess who’s getting ready for retirement… hint: not me.) anyone know of anywhere that’s looking to hire an experienced bun & roll mixer operator, for a decent pay, or a guaranteed 40 hours/week? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/50 "2001-07-07T14:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JeffB \* > \*\*Theoretically, **GIS** , is not just being obtuse. Here are four “dollar” currencies I found on [The Universal Currency Converter[sup]TM[/sup]](http://www.xe.com/ucc/) that _could_ make **GIS** ’s claims valid: > > ```auto > > Hong Kong 100 HKD = 12.82 USD > Jamaica 100 JMD = 2.20 USD > Taiwan 100 TWD = 2.91 USD > Trinidad & Tobago 100 TTD = 16.37 USD > > ``` > > I could see unionized employees making these amounts. **GIS** _is_ just be obtuse.\*\* Union workers in HK are lucky to make USD20,000 per YEAR. Middle managers, can be very value added and can be a waste of air that costs a company millions. I’ve been on both sides. It’s tough for those grad school kids to get out in the real world and find out all those years and all that tuition counts for jack squat. I speak from experience as i posses an MBA. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/51 "2001-07-07T17:32:13Z")
Union workers make what they do for many reasons. For one, collective bargaining, as has already been mentioned. Second, their collective bargaining agreements give management a certain amount of security, which they can then repay by offering a slightly higher salary. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this, until the balance of power shifts too far towards the union. This can happen because of ‘closed shop’ laws that forces the company to deal with the union, and it can also happen because of threats and violence, which are often treated very differently when a union does it. This can intimidate a company into providing a higher salary than it otherwise would. Police often look the other way when union violence takes place. Then there is _collusion_, which is illegal when companies do it, but perfectly fine when unions do it, because they wrap it around terms like “solidarity”. A union’s power can be greatly enhanced if it can talk other unions into striking along with them. Finally, unions in some countries manage to get government’s to pass other pro-union laws that give them a ton of power over management. Not trying to start and anti-union war here. I’m just answering the OP, which was asking WHY union workers might make more than non-union workers. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/52 "2001-07-07T18:58:49Z")
Actually the OP was asking why workers make more than _he/she_ does. 😉 This is a common question. I’ve even heard non-union folks complain that union workers make close to, but not as much as, they do. A 60K tech at work bitches constantly about the 40K a janitor makes. 😕 Human nature, I guess. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329/53 "2001-07-07T19:30:50Z")
Human nature indeed, but insufficient reason to keep open a pointless thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-union-workers-paid-so-much-did-i-waste-my-time-studying/71329.md?page=2)