# Why are US Navy SEALs overwhelmingly white? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534 "2016-01-29T00:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/21 "2016-01-29T06:58:48Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > I doubt it. Seventy percent of blacks and Latinos live in cities or inner-ring suburbs, where natural swimming holes are unlikely to be found. Such locales may have public swimming pools, but even there you are unlikely to obtain free/cheap swimming _lessons_, and merely splashing around in the water isn’t going to teach good technique. Moreover, many financially-distressed cities are closing public pools (see, e.g., [Detroit’s woes](http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/metro-detroit/2015/06/17/public-pools/28900933/)), while others are concentrating resources on the cheaper-to-build-and-operate “splash parks,” which don’t have water deep enough for swimming. > > Per the article cited above, more than two-thirds of black children in the U.S. can’t swim. I think much much less than one third of the people I know can’t swim. But anyway, from what little I know about SEAL qualifications, swimming is one of your minor worries. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/22 "2016-01-29T07:09:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The 2% number is officers. No, the percentage of black officers is 1% (eight black officers out of a total of 753). For enlisted men it’s 45 black enlisted men out of a total of 2,242. My source for these figures is the [article](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/05/diversity-seals-green-berets/31122851/?AID=10709313&PID=3865083&SID=ijzcilbt630004p600dth) Telemark linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/23 "2016-01-29T07:31:46Z")
Maybe whites are more prone to violence? :=0 ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/24 "2016-01-29T07:50:45Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > I think much much less than one third of the people I know can’t swim. But anyway, from what little I know about SEAL qualifications, swimming is one of your minor worries. Minor? Maybe after one graduates, but during the initial BUDS part of the training, I’d think swimming is pretty high up there in things to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/25 "2016-01-29T08:29:58Z")
I find it hard to believe that a young adult who up to that point in his life either (1) hasn’t bothered to or (2) hasn’t had the opportunity to learn to swim would even remotely consider a career like a Navy SEAL (or diver). ---
**Author:** ![Dereknocue67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@Dereknocue67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dereknocue67)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/26 "2016-01-29T09:51:36Z")
Perhaps black men are not as insecure as whites and feel no need to prove their manliness. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/27 "2016-01-29T14:51:33Z")
Perhaps black men are smarter and want nothing to do with a specialty that throws them into very dangerous situations with some degree of regularity. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/28 "2016-01-29T14:52:11Z")
I’d be curious to see how the Ranger battalions, Army Special Forces/1st SFOD-D and USAF Pararescue/Combat Controllers compare in terms of diversity to the SEALs? They’re all special operations forces with broadly similar high-attrition selection processes, and I’d think that if there’s no SEAL-specific race-related business going on, they’d all have roughly the same percentages of non-white members. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/29 "2016-01-29T15:06:27Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d be curious to see how the Ranger battalions, Army Special Forces/1st SFOD-D and USAF Pararescue/Combat Controllers compare in terms of diversity to the SEALs? > > They’re all special operations forces with broadly similar high-attrition selection processes, and I’d think that if there’s no SEAL-specific race-related business going on, they’d all have roughly the same percentages of non-white members. From the [USA Today article](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/05/diversity-seals-green-berets/31122851/?AID=10709313&PID=3865083&SID=ijztl7plf40004p600dth): > [@](#): > > For the Air Force’s para-rescue jumpers, highly trained airmen who search for missing troops, only one of 166 is black, or .6% of that force. There is a multi-part documentary about the training of para-rescue jumpers (available on Youtube): Lengthy parts of their training takes place in the pool, swimming is extremely important and if I recall correctly, all of these airmen are trained as divers. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/30 "2016-01-29T15:17:24Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Whoever wrote that article appears to believe that being a certain color gives you instant comprehension of anybody whose skin tone is similar to yours. They’re mixing “few blacks in commandos” with “we may deploy anywhere so we need to be able to interact with different cultures”. I think “instant comprehension” is vastly overstated what they meant. I don’t think it’s so hard to imagine a black American might make things a little easier when he’s training African troops. Certainly makes him a little less conspicuous to outside observers. My initial WAG is that at least some of the disparity may come from different motivations for joining the military. Perhaps a higher percentage of white people join up thinking of this as their career, which would make them more likely to choose these specialties. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/31 "2016-01-29T15:39:20Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Perhaps black men are smarter and want nothing to do with a specialty that throws them into very dangerous situations with some degree of regularity. These are not average people off the streets. We’re talking about people who already chose to voluntarily join the armed forces. Among the people who join the armed forces, you’d expect to find a significant number who want to join elite military units like the Green Berets and the Seals. Especially when membership in these units is often a path to promotion. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/32 "2016-01-29T15:49:41Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I find it hard to believe that a young adult who up to that point in his life either (1) hasn’t bothered to or (2) hasn’t had the opportunity to learn to swim would even remotely consider a career like a Navy SEAL (or diver). Seconded. The sensation (or even the prospect) of being immersed in water can be terrifying for the non-swimmer. Many of us have little memory of our own childhood fears, which have been replaced by hours of fun at pools and beaches after being eased through the process in toddlerhood and pre-school. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/33 "2016-01-29T15:52:25Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d be curious to see how the Ranger battalions, Army Special Forces/1st SFOD-D and USAF Pararescue/Combat Controllers compare in terms of diversity to the SEALs? > > They’re all special operations forces with broadly similar high-attrition selection processes, and I’d think that if there’s no SEAL-specific race-related business going on, they’d all have roughly the same percentages of non-white members. There was a huge stink in 2012 when it came out that USMC scout snipers (also special operation forces with a very high attrition-selection rate) had been using the double Sig rune (ϟϟ) in its Armanen form (the full blooded double lightning bolt SS used by the well, SS) [since at least the 1980s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STA_sniper#Controversial_use_of_the_.22SS.22_symbol). > [@](#): > > In February 2012, U.S. media reported that Marine scout snipers had been using the double Sig rune (ϟϟ, “SS”) in its “Armanen” form () to symbolize their function since at least the 1980s.[6][7] The same stylized double rune was the symbol of the SS, the Nazi organization that was instrumental in conducting the Holocaust. Strong media criticism of this practice ensued. The Commandant of the Marine Corps gave orders to stop it, issued an apology, and ordered an investigation into the prevalence of this practice.[7] > > A Marine official was quoted as saying that their leadership believed that the Marines did not understand the logo’s significance.[7] The Military Religious Freedom Foundation, which had helped circulate an image of snipers posing with a blue “SS” flag, questioned this assumption, writing that the flag was sold by a website dedicated to German World War II and Nazi memorabilia.[8] Apart from being an absolute disgrace to the honor of the US military, everyone posing in the [photo in question](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Marine_scout_snipers_with_SS_flag.JPG) is unsurprisingly white. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/34 "2016-01-29T16:03:28Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > I think much much less than one third of the people I know can’t swim. But anyway, from what little I know about SEAL qualifications, swimming is one of your minor worries. I’d expect people who don’t know how to swim don’t sign up for the branch of the military that involves being on boats. It’s not that the navy is stopping them from joining. I’m sure the navy is more than capable of training people how to swim. A non-swimmer could probably join the Navy and eventually be able to meet all the SEAL qualifications which do indeed require you to be able to swim. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/35 "2016-01-29T16:20:25Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I’d expect people who don’t know how to swim don’t sign up for the branch of the military that involves being on boats. It’s not that the navy is stopping them from joining. > > I’m sure the navy is more than capable of training people how to swim. A non-swimmer could probably join the Navy and eventually be able to meet all the SEAL qualifications which do indeed require you to be able to swim. But there is a huge difference between passing a basic swimming test in a heated indoor swimming pool and becoming an elite seaborne warrior who operates for hours under the most adverse conditions, using high-end diving equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/36 "2016-01-29T16:49:15Z")
As a general rule, African-Americans are overrepresented in the armed services, but underrepresented in the officer corps (though to a substantially lower degree than in the private sector). Are there enlisted SEAL ranks? ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/37 "2016-01-29T16:49:43Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I’d expect people who don’t know how to swim don’t sign up for the branch of the military that involves being on boats. It’s not that the navy is stopping them from joining. > > I’m sure the navy is more than capable of training people how to swim. A non-swimmer could probably join the Navy and eventually be able to meet all the SEAL qualifications which do indeed require you to be able to swim. I’m sure the Navy could. They may even be interested in spending resources on that. Still, it’s a big natural barrier to overcome, especially if you are also trying to withstand the other rigors of training. I wonder how many acrophobes go out to become paratroopers? I’m sure they could do it with enough support. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/38 "2016-01-29T16:54:45Z")
I would expect a large portion of people who volunteer for special operations forces would tend to exhibit thrill-seeking behavior. Is this trait equally represented across different ethnic groups? Also, I would be willing to bet that most people who join the military for poor backgrounds, especially those without a family tradition of military service, join as a way to improve their lives, between job training and college opportunities. If one were joining for such reasons, the combat arms as well as special forces would not seem the way to go. BTW, how do these numbers stack up for the Marines? Marine recruits are taught to swim, I believe, and I also believe they are assigned to an MOS rather than being able to choose one in their enlistment contract. Also, the USMC is pretty heavy on esprit-de-corps. I would expect this to have an impact on volunteering for things like Force Recon. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/39 "2016-01-29T16:56:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As a general rule, African-Americans are overrepresented in the armed services, but underrepresented in the officer corps (though to a substantially lower degree than in the private sector). Are there enlisted SEAL ranks? See upthread. The majority of SEALs are enlisted. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/40 "2016-01-29T17:22:05Z")
The difference in swimming ability and interest between races in true but unimportant. Learning to swim is not difficult, I used to teach four and five year olds to swim and if they can do it any sufficiently motivated 20 year old could do it. The primary difference is motivation. In the military white people are over represented in combat jobs and blacks are over represented in support jobs. It seems like white people are joining the military for adventure and black people are joining for job skills. Since the Seals provide lots of adventure and very little civilian applicable job skills it makes sense for them to be mostly white. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534.md?page=3)