# Why are US Navy SEALs overwhelmingly white? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534 "2016-01-29T00:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/61 "2016-01-30T17:16:17Z")
Why must we always assume that all races and cultures should be represented equally in all things. People are not different colored marbles randomly mixed in a bag waiting to be picked out and counted. Here is an interesting [opinion piece](Http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2016/01/26/the-demand-for-villains-n2109796/page/full) by Thomas Sowell that asks a similar question. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/62 "2016-01-30T18:35:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **CarnalK** : > > I don’t think it’s so hard to imagine a black American might make things a little easier when he’s training African troops. Certainly makes him a little less conspicuous to outside observers. Not particularly. You take a typical African-American and put him in Africa, and most of the locals are going to call him “white”. America’s social construct of race is such that anyone who isn’t completely white is considered black, but Africa’s is the reverse, and most American “blacks” are actually mixed-race. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/63 "2016-01-30T19:00:58Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Why is it assumed that the skills required to be a Navy SEAL would be universally, randomly distributed throughout the American population. It doesn’t seem relevant to compare things like inner-city swimming pools, or levels of wealth, between the average white person and the average black person. The SEALs and Special Forces are NOT average in any way. And no normal, average human being would ever want to suffer through their training. Whatever drives a person to strive for these super-elite units is probably based less on sociological statistics about groups, and more on personal drives and psychology of the individual. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/64 "2016-01-30T20:05:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not particularly. You take a typical African-American and put him in Africa, and most of the locals are going to call him “white”. America’s social construct of race is such that anyone who isn’t completely white is considered black, but Africa’s is the reverse, and most American “blacks” are actually mixed-race. I don’t think they’d be all giddy and say “ooh, he’s one of us!” but I could see it smoothing things. Where do you get the idea that they would call him “white”? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/65 "2016-01-30T20:32:02Z")
The article linked to mentions that US SF units often stick out like sore thumbs. I don’t see how having racially diverse units would help with that since an ethnically diverse SEAL 16 man platoon\* would be composed of 11 whites, 2 blacks, 2-3 Hispanics and 1-2 multiracial/Asians. You would still have a lot of pale faces. In a lot of countries where the US is likely to use SF, being ethnically diverse is what would stick out most of all since, contrary to what the bien-pensants would have you believe, countries where the US is likely to send SF aren’t filled with noble savages all getting along together under a big rainbow tent. What might help blend in though is to have platoons/teams of the same (roughly apparent) ethnicity, especially if they use civilian clothing or foreign uniforms\*\*. An all-Hispanic SF group would indeed blend in better in Latin America than a white or racially diverse one. Same for an all-black SF group in sub-Saharan Africa. Given the US’ history, would it be unfathomable to have units of the same ethnic group? \*[United States Navy SEALs - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_SEALs#SEAL_Teams) \*\* Yes, I know, against the laws of war. I don’t think the SF care though. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/66 "2016-01-30T22:25:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t think they’d be all giddy and say “ooh, he’s one of us!” but I could see it smoothing things. Where do you get the idea that they would call him “white”? Well, your perception of race is not necessarily another’s. I could easily image a scenario where a group of Africans could conceive of an African-American person as ‘white’ if he happens to not be dark skinned “enough” to their tastes/conception/mental-archetype. Hell US pop culture even has [jokes along this line of thought](https://youtu.be/ivd0oXr5f-g?t=11). ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/67 "2016-01-30T23:54:28Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure the navy is more than capable of training people how to swim. A non-swimmer could probably join the Navy and eventually be able to meet all the SEAL qualifications which do indeed require you to be able to swim. This was my point about swimming skills pre-enlistment. You learn to swim pretty quick as a fit adult under hard supervision. A scared seven-year old will need at least two summers. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/68 "2016-01-31T06:21:15Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Well, your perception of race is not necessarily another’s. I could easily image a scenario where a group of Africans could conceive of an African-American person as ‘white’ if he happens to not be dark skinned “enough” to their tastes/conception/mental-archetype. I could concieve it too, but what I replied to was that a typical African-American WOULD be called white by your average African. That’s a heck of a lot more confident than “conceivable” or “imaginable”. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/69 "2016-01-31T13:48:01Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Well, your perception of race is not necessarily another’s. I could easily image a scenario where a group of Africans could conceive of an African-American person as ‘white’ if he happens to not be dark skinned “enough” to their tastes/conception/mental-archetype. > > Hell US pop culture even has [jokes along this line of thought](https://youtu.be/ivd0oXr5f-g?t=11). That video won’t play for me but Richard Pryor had a story about it. It was in one of his concert movies. Pryor: "In Zimbabwe I said, ‘Excuse me, which tribe do you think I might be from? Maybe you see something in my features that tells you where my ancestors come from?’ And this African looks at me for a while and finally he says, ‘Italian.’ " ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/70 "2016-01-31T14:03:42Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > That video won’t play for me but Richard Pryor had a story about it. It was in one of his concert movies. > > Pryor: "In Zimbabwe I said, ‘Excuse me, which tribe do you think I might be from? Maybe you see something in my features that tells you where my ancestors come from?’ And this African looks at me for a while and finally he says, ‘Italian.’ " Mine was a scene from “Harold and Kumar escape from Guantanamo Bay.” Kal Penn gets ‘randomly searched’ at the airport and claims racism. Roughly, the AfAm agent replies that black people like him can’t be racist and Kal Penn retorts that the agent is “barely even brown.” ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/71 "2016-01-31T14:13:23Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > The article linked to mentions that US SF units often stick out like sore thumbs. I don’t see how having racially diverse units would help with that since an ethnically diverse SEAL 16 man platoon\* would be composed of 11 whites, 2 blacks, 2-3 Hispanics and 1-2 multiracial/Asians. You would still have a lot of pale faces. In a lot of countries where the US is likely to use SF, being ethnically diverse is what would stick out most of all since, contrary to what the bien-pensants would have you believe, countries where the US is likely to send SF aren’t filled with noble savages all getting along together under a big rainbow tent. > > What might help blend in though is to have platoons/teams of the same (roughly apparent) ethnicity, especially if they use civilian clothing or foreign uniforms\*\*. An all-Hispanic SF group would indeed blend in better in Latin America than a white or racially diverse one. Same for an all-black SF group in sub-Saharan Africa. Given the US’ history, would it be unfathomable to have units of the same ethnic group? Unless the said seals are **actually from** the exotic locale in question, its highly likely that they would stick out worst then [Lt. Aldo’s theatre crew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krtnt191Drg) in Inglorious Bastards. Being the same race as someone is entirely different then passing as a local. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/72 "2016-01-31T17:41:11Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Unless the said seals are **actually from** the exotic locale in question, its highly likely that they would stick out worst then [Lt. Aldo’s theatre crew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krtnt191Drg) in Inglorious Bastards. Being the same race as someone is entirely different then passing as a local. I partly agree. 2 notes however: Just looking like you might be from the area can be an advantage over obviously not being from the same area at first glance. E.g.: A group of black SEALs going around in a car in Somalia would attract less attention than a white or mixed group doing the same. The experience of the Brandenburgers suggests that close can be good enough: [Brandenburgers - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburgers) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/73 "2016-01-31T18:07:58Z")
I’m certainly no SF guy, but when my US Army unit was out doing training in Latin America we certainly stood out like sore thumbs. We’d be a 15-20 guys total; a mix of white, Af-Am dark brown, and maybe a Hispanic or two. All around 6 ft or more and with bulky made-in-the-gym muscles. Surrounded by a sea of a hundred 5 foot swarthy compact locals of Hispanic / indigenous / black mixture with sinewy made-in-the-fields muscles. As USAians go I’m barely average height for my year group. Down there I was a head taller than damn near everyone I met in damn near every country & military we visited. Which was almost all of them. Between our size, our haircuts, our sunglasses, and our poor Spanish accents; yeah, we stood out. The SF guys we occasionally dealt with stood out from us as even more of the same. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/74 "2016-01-31T18:31:28Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I partly agree. 2 notes however: > > Just looking like you might be from the area can be an advantage over obviously not being from the same area at first glance. E.g.: A group of black SEALs going around in a car in Somalia would attract less attention than a white or mixed group doing the same. > > The experience of the Brandenburgers suggests that close can be good enough: [Brandenburgers - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburgers) I suppose that your said example highlights my point. Maybe in our western-normed eyes, an all AfAm troop could pass as Somalis (at first glance), but to the locals in Somalia I bet they would have an easy time spotting them as non-Somali foreigners (even at first glance). Leaving aside all the cultural differences, [Somalis](https://www.google.ca/search?q=somalia&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=785&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKkKv20tTKAhWDqh4KHeXpBvsQ_AUIBygC#tbm=isch&q=somali+pirates+captured) don’t really **look** like AfAms. This is normal as AfAms don’t trace their ancestry to Somalia. It’s possible that to you and me, ‘black is black,’ but I’m sure locals can easily see through this ruse, despite the troop having a dark/dusky skin tone. ---
**Author:** ![Carl\_Pham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Carl\_Pham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carl_Pham)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/75 "2016-01-31T20:43:28Z")
I would guess it arises from the fact that SEAL training puts a real premium on endurance, much more so than raw strength. Blacks in general seem to be stronger than whites, but whites in general appear to have greater endurance. You see the same result in, for example, Olympic athletes. Blacks are overrepresented in sprinting events, and underrepresented in long endurance events. Interesting, there are similar differences between men and women: women tend to be better at endurance than men. I believe in ultra long distance endurance events, women are overrepresented, and they also do better at tolerating cold and pain for very long times. Perhaps in theory the best possible elite military, if sheer physical endurance were the #1 criterion, would be white women. However, in reality, I suspect there is enough premium put on raw physical strength that the women are put at a disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/76 "2016-02-01T02:33:51Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Perhaps black men are smarter and want nothing to do with a specialty that throws them into very dangerous situations with some degree of regularity. [1999 AFQT scores by race here](https://www.cna.org/pop-rep/1999/html/appendices/A_6.html). For Cat 1 (93rd to 99th percentile), there were 9,582 white applicants (4.67% of all applicants); 541 black applicants (0.69% of all applicants). So if quantified results such as ASVAB/AFQT are used as a proxy screen for intellect\*, the black applicant pool is smaller, even adjusted for proportion of applicants by race. If you are just saying you have to be generally stupid to want to be a seal, I guess that’s a different question. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/77 "2016-02-01T03:35:41Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > [1999 AFQT scores by race here](https://www.cna.org/pop-rep/1999/html/appendices/A_6.html). > > For Cat 1 (93rd to 99th percentile), there were 9,582 white applicants (4.67% of all applicants); 541 black applicants (0.69% of all applicants). > > So if quantified results such as ASVAB/AFQT are used as a proxy screen for intellect\*, the black applicant pool is smaller, even adjusted for proportion of applicants by race. > > If you are just saying you have to be generally stupid to want to be a seal, I guess that’s a different question. 🙂 I don’t know if seals have the same requirements as green berets but that would have a huge difference for sf school which requires among other things attendance at language school which only admits the top 2% of the military. I’ve known many sf soldiers and I’ve never known one who wasn’t top grade both physically and mentally. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534/78 "2016-02-01T14:25:57Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Why must we always assume that all races and cultures should be represented equally in all things. People are not different colored marbles randomly mixed in a bag waiting to be picked out and counted. We’re not assuming they should all be equally represented, necessarily. We’re asking why they’re not. The answer determines any policy choices that may result. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-us-navy-seals-overwhelmingly-white/744534.md?page=3)