# Why Are Watts a Bad Measure for Kitchen Appliances? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 2, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452 "2018-05-02T04:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/1 "2018-05-02T04:19:23Z")
I am in the market for a stand mixer and the manufacturers often tout that their mixer is (say) 550 watts (or whatever). Presumably this means it is more powerful than machines with a lower wattage. But then a $2000 Hobart stand mixer (meant for professional kitchens and waaay past my needs) is 350 watts and better in nearly every way. I have seen repeatedly that using wattage as a measure for these machines is meaningless. Maybe it is meaningless for other machines too but going with mixers since it is what I am looking at. I believe that but why? What is the trick the manufacturers are pulling on us here? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/2 "2018-05-02T04:34:25Z")
Well, first off they often lie or mislead with regards to the watt rating. But besides that, a good mixer (or whatever) is about far more than the power rating of its motor. A well-engineered drivetrain that can deliver that power reliably to the mixing bits, good quality materials that will stand up to the use and abuse it will see, well-thought-out features that are useful instead of gimmicky, etc. The problem with most crappy kitchen appliances isn’t that they don’t have enough power, but that they’re poorly made. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/3 "2018-05-02T04:56:36Z")
With stand mixers in particular, it’s the torque that matters, not the power. The few times you need the mixer head to be going very quickly, it’s for light items like whipping cream which basically every mixer can do acceptable. Where a mixer really shines is very low speed mixing of dense materials like kneading bread doughs. This doesn’t require much power but it requires a lot of torque. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/4 "2018-05-02T05:07:27Z")
Like a 500-horsepower truck with a cardboard driveshaft. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/5 "2018-05-02T05:59:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What is the trick the manufacturers are pulling on us here? The trick is that a lot of naive buyers are impressed by a high wattage rating, and think that makes it better. And it’s a lot cheaper to put a higher-powered motor into a mixer than to make other quality improvements. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/6 "2018-05-02T06:55:59Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > With stand mixers in particular, it’s the torque that matters, not the power. The few times you need the mixer head to be going very quickly, it’s for light items like whipping cream which basically every mixer can do acceptable. Where a mixer really shines is very low speed mixing of dense materials like kneading bread doughs. This doesn’t require much power but it requires a lot of torque. How do you look for higher torque when shopping for mixers? ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/7 "2018-05-02T07:53:05Z")
Check out my new 2000W mixer space heater combo! Same problem with LED lights. It’s really easy to make an inefficient LED that outputs a lot of heat, it’s easy to make a motor that uses a lot of watts. All things equal more watts is better, but things are rarely equal. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/8 "2018-05-02T08:29:54Z")
The same escalation is going on all across the domestic appliance market. Vacuum cleaners are a prime example; they have been getting ever more ‘powerful’ and noisy and more expensive to buy and run, with no corresponding improvement in cleaning power. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/9 "2018-05-02T10:29:16Z")
This is an old home and car audio advertising trick too. “This subwoofer handles 600 watts of face-melting power!” or: “This six-channel amp/receiver puts out an astonishing 1000 watts per channel!”. Um,no. In this instance, the advertisers aren’t quoting the appliance’s actual ability/performance (measured as RMS, or continuous power handling), they are tossing out a meaningless stat: very brief peaks of power that the component CAN handle. Always look for RMS power instead of peak handling. You’d be amazed how different the actual figures are. Also, protip: The gain is NOT a volume knob. It’s for balancing different groups of loudspeakers that are amplifier powered. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/10 "2018-05-02T12:40:15Z")
It’s a deceptive sales tactic that’s been going on forever for lots of things. I remember when PCs were judged by how many MHz (or GHz) the processor ran at. And engine horsepower is still used as a measure for how “fast” or powerful a vehicle is. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Always look for RMS power instead of peak handling. Sorry for the hijack, but I have always hated the term “RMS power.” Yea, I know what it means. But it really should be called “average power” and not “RMS power.” The problem with the latter is that it could be interpreted as taking the root-mean-sum of the power waveform, which (AFAIK) is never done. When it comes to power, engineering folks talk about average power and peak power, and EE’s will further talk about real power, reactive power, and apparent power. “RMS power” is not in their vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/11 "2018-05-02T12:58:53Z")
Product quality is a big issue for all of us. Rather than rely on specs and other information provided by the manufacturer, I try to find out as much information about a product as possible from 3rd party sources. I subscribe to Consumer Reports and have used their critiques many times to make purchasing decisions. I also Google product names beginning with the words, “Issues with \_\_\_\_\_”. In your case, as soon as I saw the name “Hobart”, my thought was, “Buy it!” They have a long track record of great mixers. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/12 "2018-05-02T14:25:20Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It’s a deceptive sales tactic that’s been going on forever for lots of things. I remember when PCs were judged by how many MHz (or GHz) the processor ran at. And engine horsepower is still used as a measure for how “fast” or powerful a vehicle is. > Sorry for the hijack, but I have always hated the term “RMS power.” Yea, I know what it means. But it really should be called “average power” and not “RMS power.” The problem with the latter is that it could be interpreted as taking the root-mean-sum of the power waveform, which (AFAIK) is never done. When it comes to power, engineering folks talk about average power and peak power, and EE’s will further talk about real power, reactive power, and apparent power. “RMS power” is not in their vocabulary. Quora answers this pretty well, [here](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-the-average-value-of-AC-and-the-RMS-value-of-AC) wrt to the difference between RMS(Root Mean Square) and Average power. For back of the napkin calculations I was taught RMS power=Pk power x .7071, and Avg power =Pk x.637. This doesn’t take into consideration phase shifts and assumes perfect sine waves but it works well enough for most purposes. When I was stereo shopping I came across this quite often where a cheap amp might proclaim 100W/ch and a far more expensive one “only” 30 but if you looked at the fine print it was 100W pk to pk at 1000 Hz and 10% total harmonic distortion. The expensive amp was 30 W continuous 15-20000 Hz at .01 THD. So what does all that blah blah mean to people who don’t have an electronics background? It looks like the cheap amp kicks the expensive one’s ass. But if you compare the amps the same way that 100W amp is 50 W Pk , 50 x .637 to get Average(or continuous) pwr and it’s now down to roughly 31 W. Not done yet, though. The cheap amp only pumped out that much power while clipping the sine wave at one frequency to the point it’s pretty much noise. The expensive amp is producing clean audio across the audio spectrum. So to match the same THD number on the cheap amp you have to turn the volume waaay down (assuming the components are good enough), so in the end your 100 W amp is more like 10W, maybe 15 at best to match the expensive one. Watts can be useful but as alluded to above it’s like buying a car based on hp alone. 500 Hp and a cardboard driveshaft is an apt analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/13 "2018-05-02T14:39:16Z")
It’s the megapixels of kitchen appliances and about as meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/14 "2018-05-02T14:47:02Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > … and EE’s will further talk about real power, reactive power, and apparent power. “RMS power” is not in their vocabulary. Well, SOME of us EE’s in the distant past have used the term RMS just because the slightly educated consumer adopted it as a “honest” (not peak) measure of power and were constantly asked by friends to help them evaluate their audio decisions. Not saying (admitting) I did that, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/15 "2018-05-02T15:25:13Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > Quora answers this pretty well, [here](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-the-average-value-of-AC-and-the-RMS-value-of-AC) wrt to the difference between RMS(Root Mean Square) and Average power. For back of the napkin calculations I was taught RMS power=Pk power x .7071, and Avg power =Pk x.637. This doesn’t take into consideration phase shifts and assumes perfect sine waves but it works well enough for most purposes. The Quora discussion is talking about RMS voltage and RMS current, both of which are valid concepts. They’re not talking about “RMS power.” It is perfectly valid to talk about average voltage, RMS voltage, and peak voltage. It is also perfectly valid to talk about average current, RMS current, and peak current. But when it comes to _power_, we are pretty much limited to discussing average power and peak power. RMS voltage and RMS current can be used to calculate average apparent power, and if you _also_ measure the phase angle you can calculate average real power. There’s no such thing as “RMS power.” As mentioned previously, when someone says “RMS power,” what they really mean is average power. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/16 "2018-05-02T15:32:52Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Well, SOME of us EE’s in the distant past have used the term RMS just because the slightly educated consumer adopted it as a “honest” (not peak) measure of power and were constantly asked by friends to help them evaluate their audio decisions. > Not saying (admitting) I did that, of course. I am guessing the whole “RMS power” thing came about when someone said, “We measured the output voltage using an RMS voltmeter and the output current using an RMS ammeter. We then multiplied the two numbers and called it ‘RMS power.’” There are a couple things wrong with this: 1. They are measuring apparent power, not real power. The real power delivered to the speaker will be less than the value they calculate. 2. They are measuring _average_ power. it was a mistake to call it “RMS power.” ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/17 "2018-05-02T16:43:21Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I am guessing the whole “RMS power” thing came about when someone said, “We measured the output voltage using an RMS voltmeter and the output current using an RMS ammeter. We then multiplied the two numbers and called it ‘RMS power.’” > > There are a couple things wrong with this: > > 1. They are measuring apparent power, not real power. The real power delivered to the speaker will be less than the value they calculate. > > 2. They are measuring _average_ power. it was a mistake to call it “RMS power.” Not, disagreeing with you, just giving MHO as to why RMS was used. I certainly agree with you that RMS was wrong but was it a mistake? Possibly. Using the term “average power” to the layman might give them the impression that you are referring to the output of the amplifier at half volume. In the 70’s and 80’s most “sensational” manufacturers were using terms like peak output power while the more responsible ones were trying to differentiate their products as having a cleaner output at the units upper operating level. Yes, the RMS term was used incorrectly but it turned out to be a smaller lie the “Peak” The really crazy thing was that just specifying power outage whether it was peak, RMS, or average with no reference to the total harmonic distortion at that given output was basically telling the customer how loud they could go but not how distorted (crappy) the output would be. Some manufacturers stated THD. By itself not meaningful but when stated at a reference output level it provided some additional information about the integrity of the amp. Apologies to others if this is a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/18 "2018-05-02T18:55:34Z")
One realistic criterion for a mixer: Bread dough and stiff cookie dough are hard on poor-quality mixers. Getting a mixer that’s popular with people who make a lot of bread and big batches of cookies is a better measure than the watts. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/19 "2018-05-02T19:00:13Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It’s a deceptive sales tactic that’s been going on forever for lots of things. I remember when PCs were judged by how many MHz (or GHz) the processor ran at. You do realize that the speed of the processor was a major factor of the overall speed in the pre-pentium days. ---
**Author:** ![GMANCANADA](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gmancanada/32/2837_2.png) [@GMANCANADA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GMANCANADA)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452/20 "2018-05-03T06:48:29Z")
The one kitchen appliance I’ve found has direct relationship between watts and performance are **toasters**. Higher wattage definitely toasts faster. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-are-watts-a-bad-measure-for-kitchen-appliances/813452.md?page=2)